Mixing beads...

[shilala]

OMG, they're at 66 and 67 now!!!

[Tour De Cigar]

Originally Posted by Soprano3695

If I were to mix and equal amount of 65 RH beads and 70 RH beads will I achieve a humidity level of 67.5% ?

someone ask this question a while back and a rep from hertf. responded, and he say nope... a mixture of beads will not create that specific % he said what will happen for example if you have 65% and 70% he said the 70% will over rule.. it wouldnt be a mixture of the % on the beads..

[pnoon]

Originally Posted by shilala

Silica gel, or "humidity beads" as we call them here.

Two very different products. Silica gel is a dessicant and is used to remove humidity. Beads regulate humidity by absorbing or giving off moisture.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by pnoon

Two very different products. Silica gel is a dessicant and is used to remove humidity. Beads regulate humidity by absorbing or giving off moisture.

They are one in the same. If you'll take time to research the product carefully, you'll see exactly that. You'll also be able to place exactly which product "humidity beads" are based on their characteristics, who packages and distributes which "brands", and who manufactures the silica gel in what country.
There are a number of grades with minor differences that effect it's performances at different ranges, making them better for different applications, but they are all from the same tree, and are all silica gel.
I'm not sure from where you extracted the statement you made, but I can respectfully say you are wrong.

Furthermore, the dessicant grade you are referring to will work exactly as do the "humidity beads" when conditioned as such. Their only downfall is that they work very well at an RH range around 40-50%, making them less desirable for our use in humidors. We'd have to use a far higher volume of that particular grade of silica gel to achieve the same humidification ability as the grade we refer to as "humidity beads". That's why we use a different grade that works well in the range of 60 to 70%.
I should also mention that the grade of silica gel you referred to as a dessicant used to remove humidity comes as beads or in chunk form. Most silica gels are available in either form and are chosen based on the intended application. Either form offers the same properties, though a beaded form offers a greater surface area per volume, making it more successful at adsorbing (or in our case, adsorbing and desorbing) vapor.
There are other qualities in other grades of silica gel that could make them more desirable for our needs. Some have a higher rate of depracation, meaning they won't pop when water hits them and they'll last far longer in our application. Some have smaller pores creating a larger surface area that allows them to react more quickly to changes in their environment, allowing them to come to equilibrium quicker. There are also other products such as molecular sieve, activated clay, various salt solutions, and chemical preparations that may work well in our application.

[pnoon]

Originally Posted by shilala

They are one in the same. If you'll take time to research the product carefully, you'll see exactly that. You'll also be able to place exactly which product "humidity beads" are based on their characteristics, who packages and distributes which "brands", and who manufactures the silica gel in what country.
There are a number of grades with minor differences that effect it's performances at different ranges, making them better for different applications, but they are all from the same tree, and are all silica gel.
I'm not sure from where you extracted the statement you made, but I can respectfully say you are wrong.

Furthermore, the dessicant grade you are referring to will work exactly as do the "humidity beads" when conditioned as such. Their only downfall is that they work very well at an RH range around 40-50%, making them less desirable for our use in humidors. We'd have to use a far higher volume of that particular grade of silica gel to achieve the same humidification ability as the grade we refer to as "humidity beads". That's why we use a different grade that works well in the range of 60 to 70%.
I should also mention that the grade of silica gel you referred to as a dessicant used to remove humidity comes as beads or in chunk form. Most silica gels are available in either form and are chosen based on the intended application. Either form offers the same properties, though a beaded form offers a greater surface area per volume, making it more successful at adsorbing (or in our case, adsorbing and desorbing) vapor.
There are other qualities in other grades of silica gel that could make them more desirable for our needs. Some have a higher rate of depracation, meaning they won't pop when water hits them and they'll last far longer in our application. Some have smaller pores creating a larger surface area that allows them to react more quickly to changes in their environment, allowing them to come to equilibrium quicker. There are also other products such as molecular sieve, activated clay, various salt solutions, and chemical preparations that may work well in our application.

I've been attacked. You've discredited me. I don't have to sit here and take it

Seriously, I was speaking from general knowledge and understanding. I have not reseached this in detail as you obviously have. I defer to your knowledge.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by pnoon

I've been attacked. You've discredited me. I don't have to sit here and take it

Seriously, I was speaking from general knowledge and understanding. I have not reseached this in detail as you obviously have. I defer to your knowledge.

Hang in there brother, I'm learning too.
I'm doing a battery of tests on a lot of different medias in hopes of getting everyone on the same page. I'm doing a test right now in this thread to answer this question definatively because I don't know the answer and everyone seems to have a different idea.

At the end of all the tests, hopefully we'll know what works best for our different humidors.
There's a lot of different medias that may work well in incubators, too. That's something I've been dealing with for lots of years and I've dragged what I learned there into this subject of humidity within humidors.
I'll be posting all sorts of silly test results along the way before I ultimately put everything in one place so it's available to everyone.
I think it will be good for all of us, especially me cause I'm playing hell trying to get my humidor and wine coolers "perfect".
It ain't easy being incredibly anal.

[shilala]

This morning I seperated the bags and put them back in single bags to see how far along they are.
The 69% bag has now turned into a 67% bag and the 59% bag turned into a 64% bag.
I'm now going to put the bags back together and see what happens after a few more days. I'll report back when they've done something dramatic and exciting.

[Viper139]

As far as Heartfelt Humidity Beads are concerned Bob and Old Sailor are correct. The 70% beads will work to keep the rh up at 70% and the 65% beads will absorb the moisture the 70% beads give off. This will continue until the 70% beads are dry and the rh will drop to 65% and stay there until the 65% beads are dry and the rh will drop. Heartfelt Beads are chemically treated to maitain a given rh point and will work to maintain that point. Mixing them will not acheive 67.5%.

I have tested this a few times and these are the results that I get and that it what the manufacturer states will happen with the HeEartfelt Humidity Beads.

David

[Old Sailor]

Shilala, just for sh*ts and giggles....when someone here mentions beads, it's in reference to beads from heartfelt or cigarmony; and gel means gel. That's the way it has been long before either of us joined. Just thought I would clarify the 2 as it is seen here.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by Old Sailor

Shilala, just for sh*ts and giggles....when someone here mentions beads, it's in reference to beads from heartfelt or cigarmony; and gel means gel. That's the way it has been long before either of us joined. Just thought I would clarify the 2 as it is seen here.

Thanks Old Sailor.
I was pointing out that "humidity beads" are silica gel (which I agree is confusing as it doesn't resemble "gel"), not to be confused with polyacrylamide (which is the "gel" we speak of here) for the sake of this discussion so the folks following the thread knew what I was blathering on about.
I was simply drawing lines for the discussion so we were all on the same page.
I think I'll keep doing it that way. Folks here are pretty sharp, I'm sure they know what I'm saying even if I don't sometimes.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by Viper139

As far as Heartfelt Humidity Beads are concerned Bob and Old Sailor are correct. The 70% beads will work to keep the rh up at 70% and the 65% beads will absorb the moisture the 70% beads give off. This will continue until the 70% beads are dry and the rh will drop to 65% and stay there until the 65% beads are dry and the rh will drop. Heartfelt Beads are chemically treated to maitain a given rh point and will work to maintain that point. Mixing them will not acheive 67.5%.

I have tested this a few times and these are the results that I get and that it what the manufacturer states will happen with the HeEartfelt Humidity Beads.

David

Thanks for straightening that out, David. The Original Poster hadn't mentioned anything about the RH beads being Heartfelt Beads, although
I had assumed your beads were the same as the industry standard after researching them at your website. That's my mistake for making sweeping generalizations, it won't happen again.

I hadn't seen any mention at your website of the "chemical treatment" that sets your beads apart when I did my initial research. I went back and looked again more carefully and didn't see anything.
It kind of concerns me. What sort of chemicals are they?

It seems odd to limit the properties of silica gel, considering it's capable of being conditioned to any humidity level simply by hydrating it to whatever level we choose.
Do you know any of the thinking behind that?

I'm glad to have you in this discussion, I'm sure you'll be a lot of help!!!

[Old Sailor]

Not a problem.

[Mark C]

Originally Posted by shilala

It seems odd to limit the properties of silica gel, considering it's capable of being conditioned to any humidity level simply by hydrating it to whatever level we choose.
Do you know any of the thinking behind that?

Would you mind explaining this a little further? I assumed the various different 'flavors' of 'beads' were due to physical differences in the materials. If I understand you right, you're saying I can take my 70% beads and make them hold a steady 60% somehow?

If I'm just dumping a bit of water into a bag of beads, how do they know what RH to hold, and how can I get them to change their mind and pick a new RH?

[shilala]

Originally Posted by Mark C

Would you mind explaining this a little further? I assumed the various different 'flavors' of 'beads' were due to physical differences in the materials. If I understand you right, you're saying I can take my 70% beads and make them hold a steady 60% somehow?

If I'm just dumping a bit of water into a bag of beads, how do they know what RH to hold, and how can I get them to change their mind and pick a new RH?

From what David said, if you're using heartfelt beads they are treated chemically so that you can't change the RH. It's like that with Propylene Glycol treated gel, too. The additive controls the RH.
Different salt solutions can't be made to change their RH either. A number of different salts can be mixed to acheive a specific RH level and then they'll stay at their specific RH.
With untreated silica gels, activated clay, and molecular sieve you condition the gel to whatever RH you want.
You can do it a number of ways. The easiest is to put them in a humidor with other like beads.
Personally, I sit mine on a humidifier for a period of time, usually the best part of the day. Then I put them in a big Ziplock bag and test their RH with a calibrated hygrometer. If it's too low (which I shoot for) then I just spritz them with distilled water water a little bit, close them up, let them rest overnight, then check their RH again. I then repeat as necessary until they're right where I want them.
If they get too wet, all I have to do is put them in the open air cause it's only about 40% RH in my house right now. They'll give up water really fast, trying to get themselves to 40%RH. In a couple hours I put them in a ziplock bag and check them with a hygrometer again, repeating as necessary.
I can also heat over-wetted beads in the oven at 120F for awhile and then go check them and adjust accordingly. That's a bit dicey, but it's that or put them in the fridge to pull down their RH.

So essentially you can do any RH you want with one batch of beads (silica gel). You can do the same with the other dessicants I mentioned earlier.
But you can't smoke them. So they suck compared to cigars.
Just thought I'd add that in there cause I could really go for a cigar right now.
I think I'm gonna fire up cheapo so I can toss it in 10 minutes when I'm froze out.
Hope this helped!!!
Scott

[Mark C]

Ok, so untreated silica involves a more careful 'charging' step. You have to take a few extra steps to make sure you charge them to the right RH before putting them back in the humidor. If you add too much water you can get 80% beads, or 50% if you don't add enough. Whereas the Heartfelt beads are simply 'wet and forget' due to the chemical treatment. I think I appreciate the 'idiot proofing' treatment

Those beads sure are some nifty little buggers.