Final Kitty litter humidity results

[tfar]

Originally Posted by nozero

Ten days to two weeks, guessing. I started with just the gutted humidifier and 3-4 days later added the stockings w/o wetting. The RH dropped about 4-5 points so I misted one of the stockings and put it back in, didn't need mist the other and have yet to do so. I'll know better after a few months.

And I got the KL at Petsmart for about the same price, actually my wife picked it up for me. It was funny, she says "you're going to put kitty litter in your Vinotemp"? The look on her face was priceless.

I wonder what the look on her face might have been if she knew the price of the 'other' beads.

So, this means you have them in there for less time than I do. Please report back on how stable they are and how well (i.e. how fast) they recover when you open the door. Of course, I am not asking you to become as ridiculous as Scott and I.

Just try and be observant of what happens. Also make sure your hygros are calibrated.

Till

[Da Klugs]

Originally Posted by shilala

It's a personal decision, really.
But based on all the tests I've done, MHbeads work best, then RHbeads and "set point" beads, then PGgel, and the last on the list would be Kitty Litter.
Those are all passive humidification choices.
Active humidification choices would be things like the Hydra or Moist n Aire.
Personally I use MHbeads and RHbeads right now.
MHbeads are a new product I'm testing and doing trials with, so they aren't available just yet.
Of set point type beads, everyone swears by Heartfelt beads. They're an excellent product from an excellent vendor.
I've just begun offering RHbeads which are a very similar product, but they don't have a set point control chemical in them. That allows them to be more flexible. Anyone can set them to whatever RH%age they like by conditioning them.

I think the ultimate would be a Hydra with an MHbead backup for when the Hydra runs out of water. That'd kick ass.

For the past couple of years I have been using 65% beads (Around 30 lbs) spread throughout the 2 lockers and display cab along with a Cigar Oasis II in each of the 3 units. It's about 150 CF total space. There are 42 Locker doors that open plus 2 large sliding drawers in the locker units plus large glass sliders and a couple doors in the display. Has too many places for RH to escape so passive alone does not work. It's all about the environment. In the summer ambient RH in the room is in the 50's. Let the beads get much drier and and fill the CO's maybe once a month. In the winter like now low 30's... refill the CO's at least weekly sometimes more often.

My other cab is about 27 cf. Keep 4 lbs of beads and a CO II in there as well. It has a great seal. Refill the CO maybe once a month in the winter.

Coolers are perfect for beads. Nice seal. Fill em to capacity and there is a sub CF of air to rehumidify. Unless I'm on the wrong track here.. the amount of humidification material you need is a function of your unused space more than the total space as the RH seal on a container aproaches perfection. Assuming your cigars are at your desired RH, in a cooler that is basically full you are only having to rehumidify a very small amount of cube.

The one factor you guys don't mention is the fullness or lack thereof of your cabinets. My experience has been that if you have a large airspace (like in my display cab). It's just not prcatical to operate with passive humidification alone. Too much recovery time, too much of the bead charge used.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by nthuzst

I decided to take the initiative and figure it out on my own, but I appreciate you willing to help. I need exactly 8 oz but I’m going to put 12 considering the fact I live in Arizona. Time is a scarce resource and we really appreciate the great information you’ve offered us all. Thank you

Yes, 8 ounces should do it. I thought you already had a pound, I must have misunderstood.
I'd suggest you consider a pound and make up little stocking bags and spread it around. The more surface area you can make out of your beads the better.
I have twice what I need in all my stuff, but I'm funny like that. Makes me feel safer.

[nozero]

Originally Posted by tfar

I wonder what the look on her face might have been if she knew the price of the 'other' beads.

So, this means you have them in there for less time than I do. Please report back on how stable they are and how well (i.e. how fast) they recover when you open the door. Of course, I am not asking you to become as ridiculous as Scott and I.

Just try and be observant of what happens. Also make sure your hygros are calibrated.

Till

Will do. And FWIW, you and Scott are by no means ridiculous IMO. While my collection is no where near as extensive or expensive as most I've seen here, it's all I have and I am probably close to, if not completely obsessed with keeping "just right". I have two Western Caliber III digitals that I've been affraid to calibrate with the salt test. Should I be? They are always within 1% of each other when used in the same container and very close proximity. An analog that has been tested every 90 days or so and is always spot on. And one Hygro-set round adjustable, that I consider to be the least reliable of the four.

Oh, and my wife knows about the cost of the other beads since I've purchased a Puck and two ounce Tube and told her about the cost difference when she handed me the KL, with "that look" on her face... When it comes to my wife, I've learned, somewhere over the past 32 years, that honesty is always the best policy.

[tfar]

Originally Posted by Da Klugs

For the past couple of years I have been using 65% beads (Around 30 lbs) spread throughout the 2 lockers and display cab along with a Cigar Oasis II in each of the 3 units. It's about 150 CF total space. There are 42 Locker doors that open plus 2 large sliding drawers in the locker units plus large glass sliders and a couple doors in the display. Has too many places for RH to escape so passive alone does not work. It's all about the environment. In the summer ambient RH in the room is in the 50's. Let the beads get much drier and and fill the CO's maybe once a month. In the winter like now low 30's... refill the CO's at least weekly sometimes more often.

My other cab is about 27 cf. Keep 4 lbs of beads and a CO II in there as well. It has a great seal. Refill the CO maybe once a month in the winter.

Coolers are perfect for beads. Nice seal. Fill em to capacity and there is a sub CF of air to rehumidify. Unless I'm on the wrong track here.. the amount of humidification material you need is a function of your unused space more than the total space as the RH seal on a container aproaches perfection. Assuming your cigars are at your desired RH, in a cooler that is basically full you are only having to rehumidify a very small amount of cube.

The one factor you guys don't mention is the fullness or lack thereof of your cabinets. My experience has been that if you have a large airspace (like in my display cab). It's just not prcatical to operate with passive humidification alone. Too much recovery time, too much of the bead charge used.

Dave, excellent point in terms of space occupied that I didn't mention. Mine is about 70-80% full I'd say. What you say goes very much in the direction of my 'relative humidity inertia' of cigars in boxes, in that you only have to rehumidify the space around the cigars once the cigars are at the desired level.

It's like a fridge that keeps stuff cooler, longer, with less energy if it is full.

Till

[shilala]

Thanks Klugs!!!
Good point about how much space is used up. If a unit is packed it's going to need far less time to recover once everything is at equilibrium.
When comparing Kitty Litter and beads if we're assuming the whole space, Kitty Litter is going to lose badly, and that's how I'm came about my "value" estimates.
That's how I tested KL against RHbeads, etc.
I think that's where Till and I are in disagreement, or at least where we differ in opinion.
He's not buffering 2.5 square feet, only a fraction of that now that he's brought his contents to equilibrium.
When I did the tests I had a 2.88 sq ft area and Kitty Litter did very poorly. Took forever to recover while MHbeads and Rhbeads were very fast. I used equal surface areas of beads two inches thick. I chose two inches because I found that after an inch of thickness there was no difference in performance. I doubled it to make certain I was getting apples to apples results.

I think the only point that he and I disagree on is value, but that's only because he and I are testing two different ways.
That's probably where our performance numbers are differing.
At a time I used six pounds of KLbeads in one of my wine coolers.
Try as I may I could not get it to keep the cooler at 60%. I added two big pans of water to augment the beads and still it wouldn't keep the cooler stable.

I concern myself with recovery rate so much because the longer it takes to recover, the lower the aggregate RH%age will be over a period of time.
While Till leans toward the "If it falls between 60% and 70% it's okay" I lean towards "I want 65%, and won't be happy otherwise", although I admit I'll take 64% or 66% and consider it just as good as 65%.
Till is right, but I like a wetter smoke. Plus it'd drive me straight out of my tree if I didn't know what the average RH%age my cooler was.
At this point all Till can do is guess, but he's definately within the range he wants to be in.
I couldn't live with that, it'd drive me nuts.
I think the reason I'm so critical is from all the years of incubating birds.
Humidity control is critical, but only to +/- 2% in most cases. With cigars we're talking a larger margin, but I just can't bring myself to accept it. I'm just far too anal.

I think I can wear Till down if I keep at him.
I'm pretty sure the final word will be when he tries MHbeads. I'm getting some ready for him now. I made special ones and everything.

[tfar]

Originally Posted by shilala

Thanks Klugs!!!
Good point about how much space is used up. If a unit is packed it's going to need far less time to recover once everything is at equilibrium.
When comparing Kitty Litter and beads if we're assuming the whole space, Kitty Litter is going to lose badly, and that's how I'm came about my "value" estimates.
That's how I tested KL against RHbeads, etc.
I think that's where Till and I are in disagreement, or at least where we differ in opinion.
He's not buffering 2.5 square feet, only a fraction of that now that he's brought his contents to equilibrium.
When I did the tests I had a 2.88 sq ft area and Kitty Litter did very poorly. Took forever to recover while MHbeads and Rhbeads were very fast. I used equal surface areas of beads two inches thick. I chose two inches because I found that after an inch of thickness there was no difference in performance. I doubled it to make certain I was getting apples to apples results.

I think the only point that he and I disagree on is value, but that's only because he and I are testing two different ways.
That's probably where our performance numbers are differing.
At a time I used six pounds of KLbeads in one of my wine coolers.
Try as I may I could not get it to keep the cooler at 60%. I added two big pans of water to augment the beads and still it wouldn't keep the cooler stable.

I concern myself with recovery rate so much because the longer it takes to recover, the lower the aggregate RH%age will be over a period of time.
While Till leans toward the "If it falls between 60% and 70% it's okay" I lean towards "I want 65%, and won't be happy otherwise", although I admit I'll take 64% or 66% and consider it just as good as 65%.
Till is right, but I like a wetter smoke. Plus it'd drive me straight out of my tree if I didn't know what the average RH%age my cooler was.
At this point all Till can do is guess, but he's definately within the range he wants to be in.
I couldn't live with that, it'd drive me nuts.
I think the reason I'm so critical is from all the years of incubating birds.
Humidity control is critical, but only to +/- 2% in most cases. With cigars we're talking a larger margin, but I just can't bring myself to accept it. I'm just far too anal.

I think I can wear Till down if I keep at him.
I'm pretty sure the final word will be when he tries MHbeads. I'm getting some ready for him now. I made special ones and everything.

No way, you can wear me down, bro!

Well, maybe you can bribe me into shutting up.

Yes, the space/volume point is an important one and our test methods do differ in this regard.

I also like a wetter smoke, just like you. Great minds think alike. As soon as one of my hygros shows less than 63%, I am as quick with the spray bottle as Lucky Luke draws his Colt. Wait... does the comic cowboy Lucky Luke even exist here? He can draw faster than his shadow, just so you know the reference.

I want to add that I am not guessing. My hygros are calibrated, I watch the internal and ambient temperature and humidity. So that is far from guessing. The only thing I was guessing is how far the actual humidity in the cigars themselves drops when I open the vino for three minutes.

I really appreciate working with you on this, as you can tell by the assiduity of my posts. Together we will get to the practical bottom of the issue and offer good advice to the CS botls. I admit that I am not as anal and that you will get deeper to the bottom of the issue, though.

Probably, everyone but the two of us is already laughing at us anyway. In German we got a proverb that translates to: Once your reputation is ruined you can finally live without embarrassment.

Cheers,

Till

[shilala]

Originally Posted by tfar

No way, you can wear me down, bro!

Well, maybe you can bribe me into shutting up.

Yes, the space/volume point is an important one and our test methods do differ in this regard.

I also like a wetter smoke, just like you. Great minds think alike. As soon as one of my hygros shows less than 63%, I am as quick with the spray bottle as Lucky Luke draws his Colt. Wait... does the comic cowboy Lucky Luke even exist here? He can draw faster than his shadow, just so you know the reference.

I want to add that I am not guessing. My hygros are calibrated, I watch the internal and ambient temperature and humidity. So that is far from guessing. The only thing I was guessing is how far the actual humidity in the cigars themselves drops when I open the vino for three minutes.

I really appreciate working with you on this, as you can tell by the assiduity of my posts. Together we will get to the practical bottom of the issue and offer good advice to the CS botls. I admit that I am not as anal and that you will get deeper to the bottom of the issue, though.

Probably, everyone but the two of us is already laughing at us anyway. In German we got a proverb that translates to: Once your reputation is ruined you can finally live without embarrassment.

Cheers,

Till

Hehehe.
I only meant guessing as far as the net aggregate RH goes.
Heck, it'd bother me if I was shooting for 65% and I walked by and saw the hygrometer go to 64% for a second and then go back to 65%.
I'd think "OMG, I'm just barely at 65%. I better add 2 grams of water, STAT!!!"
I can't help it. I'm possessed.

[tfar]

Originally Posted by shilala

Hehehe.
I'm possessed.

Correct self-assessment is the first step to betterment, my son. Now say five Pater Noster and give a little smoke sacrifice to the gods of the leaf.

Till

[Da Klugs]

You guys are a hoot.

I tortured myself trying to use just beads for a few months. Buying the active humidification device(s) to use in combination for the cabs freed up lots of time for smoking and cruising sites to buy more cigars... wait maybe it would be best to go back to just beads.

I'm convinced that larger cabs and such need active although using both seems to be a nice thing.

However, Beads(kitty litter or whatever) + full coolers = match made in heaven for long term storage.

Like being in a recesssion... It's all about the recovery.

[ChasDen]

Look out




Chas

[heatmiser]

Originally Posted by shilala

Your vino is 2.5 cubic feet. You used 7 pounds of Kitty Litter.
My wine coolers are each 6.13 cubic feet. I'd need somewhere on the order of 15 pounds of kitty litter to get the job done IF my ambient conditions were the same as yours.
They're not, they're far worse and the KL would have to replace twice as much humidity each time I open the door.

Whoa! I have the two 28 bottle Vinotemp and have been using about 2 pounds of kitty litter in the bottom of each and it holds humidity as good as about 1 pound of the Heartfelt beads I have used in the past. I have my cigars inside humidors within the wine coolers. I have small amounts of the Hearfelt beads inside these humidors and the system has proven extremely efficient with perfect results...