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Smoking room heat - know anything about HRVs or PTACs?

This is a discussion on Smoking room heat - know anything about HRVs or PTACs? within the Cigar Accessory Discussion forums, part of the The Cigar Lounges at Puff category; Thank you both for the information, this is all helpful and being filed somewhere in the recesses of my brain. ...

  
  1. #16

    The Karate Squid Aninjaforallseasons's Avatar


     

    Re: Smoking room heat - know anything about HRVs or PTACs?

    Thank you both for the information, this is all helpful and being filed somewhere in the recesses of my brain.


    ...which is to say I'll be coming back to this thread to re-read often!



    Dante, there's no air at all currently being piped into the room, either in or out. So it will be an entirely new -and independent- ventilation system, both incoming and outgoing.The only air getting into the room (as far as I can tell) is in the slight crack under the rear exterior door leading out to the patio. We weatherstripped the interior door leading into the rest of the garage.

    I think I want to go with up to a 400CFM fan, just based on the fact that there are often going to be 3-4 guys in there including myself on a regular basis, and up to 6 or 7 from time to time, and install a switch like you recommended.

    Dante, I life in the PacNW, so it's RARELY down to 30*, usually somewhere in the 40's even in the winter. So assuming a 30*temp, and a comfort level of 70, what BTU would I need? (Although it sounds like John is right, 6-8k is about right for that?)

    John, is there a reason to run the pipe up to the attic for the air intake, as opposed to just running it directly through the wall to the outside of the house?

    THank you all for your help, I'll try to get a drawing of what the house looks like ASAP!
    On Instagram as @stogieninja || Reviewer for Blind Man's Puff
    Check out cigarlopedia.com - the most comprehensive cigar database ever created!

  2. #17

    THE Ancient Rocker Johnny Rock's Avatar


     

    Re: Smoking room heat - know anything about HRVs or PTACs?

    Only because the air in your attic will be warmer than the outside air.
    Being willing is not enough, we must do. - Leonardo da Vinci.

  3. #18

    The Karate Squid Aninjaforallseasons's Avatar


     

    Re: Smoking room heat - know anything about HRVs or PTACs?

    Ah.. good point... ok, so presuming I bring air down into the attic, no smoke goes back up into the attic as long as the fan is on... but what happens after the fan turns off? I'm worried about the smoke getting into the attic as it's got a lot of stuff in there I don't want to smell smokey.

    Also, here's the image of the room:



    Above the smoking room is a small attic space
    Above the living room is our bedroom
    Above the garage is the bonus/entertainment room, which has a half-door leading into the small attic space.



    My original thought was a 400CFM exterior-mounted fan pulling air from the middle of the ceiling, running the duct up into the attic and then east to the exterior of the house.

    Then put in a fresh-air intake low on the east wall in either the northeast or southeast corner, and somehow figure out how to warm that air coming in.

    John, you mentioned that if there's a lot of circulation, it'll pull the heat out. That's why I assume I need to heat the fresh air coming into the room. If I put a fresh-air intake in the lower left corner of the east wall, could I just put a heater on the north wall real close to it and blast the air with heat as it enters the room?
    On Instagram as @stogieninja || Reviewer for Blind Man's Puff
    Check out cigarlopedia.com - the most comprehensive cigar database ever created!

  4. #19

    Young Fish Displaced's Avatar


     

    Re: Smoking room heat - know anything about HRVs or PTACs?

    You're correct about having to heat the outiside air coming in. BTU heating = 1.08*400 CFM*(70F-30F) = 17,280.

    As a side note, the relationship between the amount of outside air you bring in VS the heating required is directly proportional. So if you install a speed controller on the fan to drop the exhaust to 200 CFM you would need half the heating.

    I assume your attic has vented soffit and a ridge vent. Most newer homes do, and if that's the case you might end up having a pretty cold attic.
    Last edited by Displaced; 02-01-2012 at 06:20 AM.

  5. #20

    The Karate Squid Aninjaforallseasons's Avatar


     

    Re: Smoking room heat - know anything about HRVs or PTACs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Displaced View Post
    You're correct about having to heat the outiside air coming in. BTU heating = 1.08*400 CFM*(70F-30F) = 17,280.

    As a side note, the relationship between the amount of outside air you bring in VS the heating required is directly proportional. So if you install a speed controller on the fan to drop the exhaust to 200 CFM you would need half the heating.

    I assume your attic has vented soffit and a ridge vent. Most newer homes do, and if that's the case you might end up having a pretty cold attic.
    That's indeed the case. It's about the same as the outside, just without the windchill. All the insulation is against the interior walls of the bedroom and entertainment room, the attic is basically just board and roofing. So yeah, it's cold in winter.

    That being the case, would it make more sense just to put in a little intake vent in the exterior east wall?

    So, according to the formula above, if I'm heating 30* air to 70*, I need 18k BTU; if I'm heating 35* air to 65*, I'd need 13k BTU, yes?

    I'd like something adjustable, as most of the time the temp is more like 45-55, so we only need to heat it say 10-15 degrees. It's only for about 2-3 months a year we need more heat.

    Do they make any kind of adjustable heaters that can heat incoming fresh air? I thought I'd be able to just buy something that fit right in the intake that had heating coils or something that heated the air as it passed through into the room, but I can't seem to find anything remotely like that online.
    On Instagram as @stogieninja || Reviewer for Blind Man's Puff
    Check out cigarlopedia.com - the most comprehensive cigar database ever created!

  6. #21

    Young Fish Displaced's Avatar


     

    Re: Smoking room heat - know anything about HRVs or PTACs?

    This is going to be a short answer and I apologize. I can't reply while I'm at work and I'm only home for a few minutes then have to run out for the night. I'll get more elaborate tomorrow.

    Your math is good. You'll need about 13,000 btu (or 13MBH) to heat the air you want to replace. From your sketch it looks like your smoking room is an unconditioned space. Is that true? Are you planning on doing any heating just to keep it up to temp?


    To heat the air I think you're going to need an electric duct heater. They make them for residential forced air systems. I didn't have a chance to really look at any today. If google them you'll see that they are rated in kW for heating. kw=BTU/3412

    Almost all electric duct equipment are designed to raise the air temperature between 25-30 degrees. So that would be perfect for you. You may need a little extra heat in your space for those colder days.

    I don't want to make this too complicated that you can't do it yourself. It's pretty simple stuff once you get past the fundamentals.

    Oh, and i guess I should ask how comfortable you are at doing ductwork and electrical by yourself?

  7. #22

    The Karate Squid Aninjaforallseasons's Avatar


     

    Re: Smoking room heat - know anything about HRVs or PTACs?

    Dante, thank you for the reply! Sounds like I need 4 kw (13k BTU/3412 = 3.81). I'm going to google those electric duct heaters now, and see what I find, but 25-30 degrees sounds fine for most occasions.

    Between me and my brother-in-law, the duct work should be a snap, and the electrical only slightly more complicated; he's a contractor, and rewired his entire house, so I'm guessing he's familiar enough to get the job done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Displaced View Post
    This is going to be a short answer and I apologize. I can't reply while I'm at work and I'm only home for a few minutes then have to run out for the night. I'll get more elaborate tomorrow.

    Your math is good. You'll need about 13,000 btu (or 13MBH) to heat the air you want to replace. From your sketch it looks like your smoking room is an unconditioned space. Is that true? Are you planning on doing any heating just to keep it up to temp?


    To heat the air I think you're going to need an electric duct heater. They make them for residential forced air systems. I didn't have a chance to really look at any today. If google them you'll see that they are rated in kW for heating. kw=BTU/3412

    Almost all electric duct equipment are designed to raise the air temperature between 25-30 degrees. So that would be perfect for you. You may need a little extra heat in your space for those colder days.

    I don't want to make this too complicated that you can't do it yourself. It's pretty simple stuff once you get past the fundamentals.

    Oh, and i guess I should ask how comfortable you are at doing ductwork and electrical by yourself?
    On Instagram as @stogieninja || Reviewer for Blind Man's Puff
    Check out cigarlopedia.com - the most comprehensive cigar database ever created!

  8. #23

    Young Fish Displaced's Avatar


     

    Re: Smoking room heat - know anything about HRVs or PTACs?

    I did some looking around and I found this electric duct heater.

    Electro Industries EM-WX0515R Electric Duct Heater 5KW 8" Pipe Section 350CFM, 240V

    They have a manual on using it to heat make up air. Which is what you need.

    http://www.electromn.com/pdf/EL003.pdf

    They also have an installation manual

    http://www.electromn.com/pdf/manuals/EI904.pdf


    I think the 350 CFM 5kW unit is what you're looking for. It has a remote sensor that you install down stream of the unit and it will sense when the air is too cold and needs to be heated. The manuals go through a simple setup so you can graphically see how it works.

  9. #24

    The Karate Squid Aninjaforallseasons's Avatar


     

    Re: Smoking room heat - know anything about HRVs or PTACs?

    Ouch. $550 hurts. But it does look exactly like what I need/want, I just had no idea it would be that expensive just for the heater. Then again, I'm learning everything costs more than I think it will!

    One question: There are a ton of parts in that diagram there... do I really need a motorized damper, insulated connector, filter section, blower, and another insulated connector? Could I just cut a hole in the wall, cover it with a cent screen, run it right through the heater, and into the room?

    Thanks again, Dante!
    On Instagram as @stogieninja || Reviewer for Blind Man's Puff
    Check out cigarlopedia.com - the most comprehensive cigar database ever created!

  10. #25

    Young Fish Displaced's Avatar


     

    Re: Smoking room heat - know anything about HRVs or PTACs?

    A wall cap with insect screen and a barometric damper so it opens when your bringing air in. everything else is for a normal installation and this isn't normal.

    Do you think you'll just install it as a hard connection to the outside because if that's the case the other thing you can do is just install a wall cap with a damper on it and when your fan kicks on it would let the air come in and then you can use electric baseboard heat or something like that to heat your space. As long as you have enough capacity to heat the air it'll do the same thing but you might feel a draft. That's probably a simpler and easier way to do it.

    What i would recommend you do is start off with the just the exhaust fan setup and try just exhausting air. You might just have enough leakage to make up what your exhausting, but if you don't then you can add in the outside air connection and heaters.

  11. #26

    Young Fish Displaced's Avatar


     

    Re: Smoking room heat - know anything about HRVs or PTACs?

    There is no right or wrong way to do any of this. Finding the best solution is what this is all about.


    Here is the Markel catalog I use at work. Page 80 has floor registers with heating coils in them. You may need a few of them. They also have a huge assortment of other styles of electric heaters you can look at.
    http://www.tpicorp.com/QR/markel-H.pdf



    You can always look at these:
    Home Smoke Eater Product Reviews: Residential and Room Home Smoke Eaters Comparisons Chart

    I can't say from personal experience how well they work, but idea is to filter the air instead of exhausting it. Don't pay too much attention to the HEPA filters they advertise. They only get that rating because when they test and rate them by standard they work like HEPA filters, but after a little use they are no where near as good. HEPA filters are used in medical facilities because the particle size they trap is microscopic.

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