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New to HF beads...

This is a discussion on New to HF beads... within the Cigar Accessory Discussion forums, part of the The Cigar Lounges at Puff category; OK I did just check out the check out the HCM beads sight - clay; that's interesting......

  
  1. #46

    Young Puffer Fish


     

    Re: New to HF beads...

    OK I did just check out the check out the HCM beads sight - clay; that's interesting...

  2. #47

    No longer a community member.


     

    Re: New to HF beads...

    Quote Originally Posted by craig61a View Post
    Craig, your saying that one bead can be 'conditioned' to all different RH levels.


    I'm not saying it - a number of online vendors are saying it. A number of sites I read offer beads conditioned to whatever rh I want to buy them at. Also, a number of papers I read tell me how to condition beads (and offer equipment) to condition beads to whatever rh I want.

    According to what I have read this type of bead has been used for over 60 years in museums and in conservatory work, and the body of knowledge out there is pretty substantial. Are these 'cigar' bead vendors manufacturing their own special brand of silica beads that nobody in any other industry is breaking down their door to buy? I doubt it...

    If a particular bead holds a particular rh, then why did the beads I microwaved to a desiccated state hold at 19% overnight, and not go to a higher rh?

    Salt formulas? I maybe I'm wrong, but I highly doubt beads are calibrated using salt. Based on what I've read, beads are beads. This particular grade is different than the ones that come in packaging, specifically engineered to this type of application, which is maintaining the rh in a particular microclimate (i.e. humidor, museum display, etc.). I think whoever came up with salts is blowin' smoke...

    In the experimenting I've done in the past few days I'm quite content that I have figured out what I need to do to get the results I want out of these beads... without salt, juice, magic, or bs.
    I believe a saturated salt solution is different though because the liquid is saturated to the point where it can no longer absorb the salt... I believe boveda is something like this.. I misplaced my mass spectrometer... but environment Relative humidity is key to the buffers whether it is silica beads treated with salts to change the absorption rate or kitty litter or a loaf of bread... We have plenty of chemists and scientists on this forum I am very surprised no one has taken a mass spectrometer and just tell us what is in the bovedas then I can create my own chinese knock off Called Pelican Packs... Just call it PP for short...


  3. #48

    ZS Reserve Officer


     

    Re: New to HF beads...

    Quote Originally Posted by CarnivorousPelican View Post
    I believe a saturated salt solution is different though because the liquid is saturated to the point where it can no longer absorb the salt... I believe boveda is something like this.. I misplaced my mass spectrometer...
    I think whoever told you there are salts in the silicon dioxide is smoking something more potent than cigars.

    Having said that, boveda packs, as far as I know, are a semi-permeable membrane similar to the type found in most R/O systems. I'm not 100% on the makeup of the liquid therein, but people can recharge them using regular old distilled or R/O water as long as you don't run them dry.

  4. #49

    No longer a community member.


     

    Re: New to HF beads...

    Quote Originally Posted by elricfate View Post
    I think whoever told you there are salts in the silicon dioxide is smoking something more potent than cigars.

    Having said that, boveda packs, as far as I know, are a semi-permeable membrane similar to the type found in most R/O systems. I'm not 100% on the makeup of the liquid therein, but people can recharge them using regular old distilled or R/O water as long as you don't run them dry.
    Well Hartfelt says it all over their website... Are you knitt picking with me Sir treated with salts is what I mean... And the salts affect the absorption rate that is all over the net I even have a PDF on museum desiccants where they tried silica gel ( beads ) and then saturated salt solutions.. Guess which one is better?


    You think boveda is just a RO membrane with water in it.. Think again I have opened a few of these and it is either a saturated salt solution or some gel w/ salt or something I don't know which is what I would like to know... I believe someone with access to a mass spectrometer should indulge us

    Regardless HF, HCM, Kitty Litter etc are buffers... Now is Boveda a buffer ? ( more efficient ? or is it more stable but less efficient in its absorption rate etc..? )

    I have questions also...


    Quote Originally Posted by https://www.usaemergencysupply.com/information_center/food_storage_faq/types_of_desiccants.htm
    F.3.1 SILICA GEL: The most commonly known and used desiccant is silica gel which is a form of silica dioxide (SiO2), a naturally occurring mineral. It will work from below freezing to past the boiling point of water, but performs best at room temperatures (70-90 F) and high humidity (60-90%). Its performance begins to drop off over 100 F, but will continue to work until approximately 220 F. It will lower the relative humidity in a container to around 40% at any temperature in its range until it is saturated. Silica gel will absorb up to 40% of its weight in moisture. Some forms are approved by the FDA for direct food use (check with your supplier to be sure). It recharges easily (see below in the indicating silica gel text) and does not swell in size as it adsorbs moisture.

    F.3.2 INDICATING SILICA GEL: In the retail trade, the most commonly found form of silica gel is indicating silica gel which is small white crystals looking much like granulated sugar with small pink or blue colored crystals scattered throughout. This is ordinary silica gel with the colored specks being coated with cobalt chloride, a heavy metal salt. When the gel has absorbed approximately eight percent of its weight in water the colored crystals will turn from blue to pink making an easy visual indicator of whether the gel has become saturated with moisture. Because cobalt is a heavy metal, indicating silica gel is not food safe and should be kept from spilling into anything edible.

    The indicating silica gel will still adsorb up to 40% of its weight in water vapor just like the non-indicating type will but once it has gone past the 8% level and the crystals have turned pink there is no way to tell how close it is to saturation. This isn't necessarily a problem, you'll just have to treat like the other non-indicating desiccants and either weigh it to determine adsorption or use a humidity indicator card. These cards are made to show various humidity ranges and can be had from many desiccant and packaging suppliers.

    When saturated, both varieties of silica gel can be dried out and used again. This is done by heating the crystals in an oven at a temperature of no more than 300 F (149 C) for approximately three hours or until the crystals turn blue. Dehydrating the desiccant may also be accomplished by heating in a microwave oven. Using a 900 watt oven heat the crystals for three minute intervals until the color change occurs. The exact amount of time necessary will depend upon the oven wattage. Spreading the desiccant in a broad pan in a shallow layer will speed the process. Heating to 325 F (149 C) or more, or using a microwave oven over 900 watts can damage the gel and render it unable to adsorb moisture.

    If your desiccant is packaged, particularly if packaged in Tyvek, do not heat it above 250 F (121 C) or you could damage the material. This leaves a fairly narrow temperature window since silica gel will not begin to desorb moisture below 220 F (104 C). It's a good idea to use a reliable oven thermometer to check your oven temperature as the thermostats in home ovens are often off by more than twenty five degrees. Start with the packets in a cold oven and raise the temperature to 245 F (118 C), keeping it there for twenty four hours. Spread the packets so they are not touching and keep them at least 16 inches from any heating elements or flames so that radiant heat does not damage the packaging. Tyvek should not be microwaved.

    F.3.3 CLAY DESICCANT: Although not typically found for sale on the retail market, clay desiccant is fairly common in commercial and industrial use. The primary reason for this seems to be that it is inexpensive compared to any other form of desiccant. Some mail order suppliers offer it for retail sale.

    The material is Montmorillonite clay, composed primarily of magnesium aluminum silicate, a naturally occurring mineral. After mining it is purified, reduced to granules and subjected to a controlled dehydration process to increase its sorbent porosity. It recharges easily and does not swell as it adsorbs water vapor. It works well at low and room temperatures, but has a rather low ceiling temperature. At 120 F it will begin to desorb or shed the moisture it has adsorbed. This is an important consideration for storage in hot areas.

    Subject to a degree of variability for being a natural material, clay desiccant will adsorb approximately 25% of its weight in water vapor at 77 F and 40% relative humidity.

    If HF beads are coated in lithium chloride or something similar I dunno why anyone is using them around their cigars to be honest...
    Last edited by CarnivorousPelican; 04-13-2013 at 12:05 AM.

  5. #50

    ZS Reserve Officer


     

    Re: New to HF beads...

    Quote Originally Posted by CarnivorousPelican View Post
    Well Hartfelt says it all over their website... Are you knitt picking with me Sir treated with salts is what I mean... And the salts affect the absorption rate that is all over the net I even have a PDF on museum desiccants where they tried silica gel ( beads ) and then saturated salt solutions.. Guess which one is better?


    You think boveda is just a RO membrane with water in it.. Think again I have opened a few of these and it is either a saturated salt solution or some gel w/ salt or something I don't know which is what I would like to know... I believe someone with access to a mass spectrometer should indulge us

    Regardless HF, HCM, Kitty Litter etc are buffers... Now is Boveda a buffer ? ( more efficient ? or is it more stable but less efficient in its absorption rate etc..? )

    I have questions also...





    If HF beads are coated in lithium chloride or something similar I dunno why anyone is using them around their cigars to be honest...
    Listen, I like you, but I need to set you straight on something. The stuff you keep quoting is RD SILICON DIOXIDE, which is your standard Dessicant Silica Form (basically a porous quartz sand) that ONLY absorbs moisture and does not release it. The 40% stuff it keeps quoting? That's the kind of dessicant packs you find in your shoes, or electrostatic baggies when you buy electronics. It's also known as RD Silica Gel or Regular Density, and it's the most commonly available.

    The stuff WE use as HF beads is most likely Art-Sorb. Art-Sorb is museum quality silica gel that also DESORBS moisture (not like the standard stuff) and it doesn't have salt in it however it IS coated in Lithium Chloride but since LiCl isn't dangerous PER SE, it shouldn't be something you fear sticking in with your cigars.

    An Evaluation of Silica Gel for Humidity Control in Display Cases
    http://talasonline.com/photos/instru...ca_gel_FAQ.pdf
    Artsorb Online - Tech Info
    http://www.productosdeconservacion.com/pdf/artsorb.pdf

    Having said all of that, I retract my original statement. This type of silicon dioxide can not be calibrated by us. It is calibrated at creation and nothing you do can change it. You might be able to nudge it but all you're really doing is diminishing its capacity to perform on the standard arc that it was created to perform against.

  6. #51

    Leading Puffer Fish Gdaddy's Avatar


     

    Re: New to HF beads...

    Let me say one more thing....

    SPEED

    What medium will release and absorb at the fastest rate? Allowing your humidor to recover the fastest?

    If there was an Indy 500 of beads the HCM would win hands down. No contest.

    The real question is... who would come in last? I believe Boveda is the slowest moving in the group.

  7. #52

    Don't Thread On Me asmartbull's Avatar


     

    Re: New to HF beads...

    The OP's question was about HF BEADS
    and whether he got the correct ones.....

    If you want to talk/push HCM, start another thread....

    Mods, please close this up
    An "oath" has no expiration date......

  8. #53

    Not Here


     

    Re: New to HF beads...

    Al is correct. Let's keep this on topic (HF beads) or it will be locked. (Which means I will then have to write a PM to the OP explaining why it was locked.)
    BIA!!!

  9. #54

    No longer a community member.


     

    Re: New to HF beads...

    edited... HF beads are good when used with something else I see it no different than kitty litter now you can say they are rolled around in magic salt ( Lithium Chloride not FDA approved), whatever you want that will always maintain a RH, but in reality the salt just has a affinity for a certain RH, but the beads are still a buffer... You can't roll silica in "salt" and then say behold my saturated salt solution... I did previously post something pretty rude because I just woke up and pelicans are rude as shit when they wake up. So I apologize and I think am in a dispute between product pushers, but am opting out of the HF debates, just because I think people have financial interests and if I have to talk to more people from Ohio I am going to leave the forum
    Last edited by CarnivorousPelican; 04-13-2013 at 11:14 AM.

  10. #55

    Young Puffer Fish


     

    Re: New to HF beads...

    You may as well lock this thread - I have resolved the issue to my satisfaction long before it got to this point.

  11. #56

    No longer a community member.


     

    Re: New to HF beads...

    Quote Originally Posted by craig61a View Post
    You may as well lock this thread - I have resolved the issue to my satisfaction long before it got to this point.
    Craig I sincerely apologize man... but this bead stuff gets out of control sometimes... Alot of strong characters with strong opinions and alot of high attitudes.. I apologize once again about this... Since I am also apart of that... I won't however apologize to the people of the great state of Ohio...

  12. #57

    ZS Reserve Officer


     

    Re: New to HF beads...

    Quote Originally Posted by CarnivorousPelican View Post
    Craig I sincerely apologize man... but this bead stuff gets out of control sometimes... Alot of strong characters with strong opinions and alot of high attitudes.. I apologize once again about this... Since I am also apart of that... I won't however apologize to the people of the great state of Ohio...
    Same. I'm not a chemist or anything close, and I wasn't trying to be argumentative if I came off that way. I was just trying to wrap my head around how they work too.

    As for you, Pelican. Don't apologize, I didn't see a fight or anything else, so no need. To me, we're still on good terms, unless you think otherwise, you swamp person, lol.

  13. #58

    Leading Puffer Fish Gdaddy's Avatar


     

    Re: New to HF beads...

    I'm sorry if it came across that my intention was to 'push' the HCM beads. I'm just an enthusiastic user of the product and my enthusiasm for them bubbled over into this discussion.

    Sometimes I have trouble with my ADD but it's getting........oh, look...there's a squirrel!!

  14. #59

    Leading Puffer Fish Gdaddy's Avatar


     

    Re: New to HF beads...

    Come on guys...time for a group hug.

  15. #60

    Puffer Fish with some spikes fiatster's Avatar


     

    Re: New to HF beads...

    Finally an explanation that makes sense. Thank you Mr. Carivorous.
    Quote Originally Posted by CarnivorousPelican View Post
    Hygroscopy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




    Let me tell all of you the reality and truth about all this mumbo jumbo... The reality is Spirits live in the beads and they feed these spirits salt and some spirits like different kinds of salts.. So when they feed them some kinds of salts the spirits consume the moisture quicker because they need some water, but when it gets dry the spirits get sick and they vomit up the water.. I pray to the holy spirit of moisture every night I spit vodka on my g/f and beat her with a chicken the relative humidity of my humidor is well protected with these types of practices... So you want the spirits to find a happy place of equalization... Now all of this isn't commonly known in most circles but I am letting it out about the secret spirits.. If you like you can buy some of my Pelican Spirit Juice for 19.99 which will keep the spirits happy you won't have to beat anyone with a live chicken...

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