Storing Cigars in an air tight container ?

[scubasteven9]

Looking at these two threads:
http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthr...highlight=1942
http://clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=130516

I was wondering if it’s recommend to buy an airtight container (such as this one Oxo Good Grips® square Food Storage Pop containers from Bed bath and Beyond Link To BBB item)

This is a vacuumed sealed container. Then I was thinking of putting a few heartfelt beads in and storing some cigars for about 6-months to a year.

My plans were to buy a box (maybe CAO Brazilia or 5 Vegas A series) and storing just that box in the tuber wear, so there’s no mixing between cigars.

Looking at the post by hollywood, it seems like a great idea, but times has changed, and technology has improved.
Any recommendations or is this a Big No, No?

[Twill413]

There are several people experimenting with vacuum aging. Hopefully they will chime in. So long as you start with properly humidified cigars, and have the beads in there, it shouldn't be an issue. Many are banking on the fact that it matures a cigar more slowly and gracefully.

[NCRadioMan]

Less air exchange is a good thing.

[ChasDen]

Originally Posted by NCRadioMan

Less air exchange is a good thing.

I was under the impression that there needed to be some air exchange for gases, even if you just open it every now and then just for that purpose.

Chas

[NCRadioMan]

Less air exchange = slow aging. Slow aging = better aging. When storing long-term, you want to let them stew in their own brew. The 1942 thread is the perfect example. Alot of folks use ziplocks, plastic wrap and vacuum sealers to store boxes for the long-term to prevent or lessen air exchange.

For cigars you are going to smoke and not age, you probably do want to air them out to help get rid of amonia faster.

[tfar]

Interesting stuff. Is there any more substantial (scientific or at least empiric) info out there on this subject? I also heard, like Chas, that totally airtight is not a good. Idea. Vaccuum is different yet again.

Till

[duhman]

The vacuum containers are not truly "vacuum" or they would dehydrate the cigars. Vacuum sealed is more like it. Once sealed the moisture from the beads would outgas until the vapor pressure equalizes. My opinion is with the "stew in their brew" crowd because the ammonia and other gases continue to go through decomposition instead of just accumulating.

[NCRadioMan]

I don't know the science but I do know and trust the hundreds of years of combined smoking experience from the true FOG's on this and other boards, that I have learned this and much more from. That's all I am interested in. I don't care how it works, just that it does. Check out the section on aging in the MRN book.

Also, here is a good thread: http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthr...381#post789381

[Pyro]

Originally Posted by duhman

..Once sealed the moisture from the beads would outgas until the vapor pressure equalizes...

But, if most of the air is evacuated by a mild vacuum/underpressure, then it would be water vapour replacing that air, resulting in something close to 100 % RH inside the sealed bag or container! That does not sound good to me!

Am I missing something?

[duhman]

Originally Posted by Pyro

But, if most of the air is evacuated by a mild vacuum/underpressure, then it would be water vapour replacing that air, resulting in something close to 100 % RH inside the sealed bag or container! That does not sound good to me!

Am I missing something?

Good point.
I'm not sure how the beads work but from the descriptions I've heard; if the surrounding humidity is higher than the beads' rating, then they adsorb moisture, if the humidity is low, they release moisture. What you said sounds correct for any sealed container with free water, no matter the pressure. RH != g/l. How much moisture is in the 'gars also depends on temperature, not just RH. At a 50F, 60% is a lot drier than at 70F.
So if your sticks were just right and you put them in an air tight sealed container, even a mild vacuum, you shouldn't need any extra source of moisture to keep them stable. they can't change from the way they were when they were put in.

[Scimmia]

Originally Posted by Pyro

But, if most of the air is evacuated by a mild vacuum/underpressure, then it would be water vapour replacing that air, resulting in something close to 100 % RH inside the sealed bag or container! That does not sound good to me!

Am I missing something?

Now that is an interesting question. From what I know, what you're missing is that the presence or absence of air doesn't really matter to water vapor. At any given temperature, a specific amount of water will be evaporating, regardless of any gas above it. As the vapor pressure of water rises from the evaporation, more water will be re-condensing. At some point, they will hit equilibrium, where the evaporation and condensation are equal. We use substances that give us a set equilibrium point, thus a specific RH. I don't see where air pressure would figure into it.

Then again, if you hit the pressure where the water starts to boil at room temperature, I don't know what kind of effect we'd be looking at.

[Scimmia]

Originally Posted by duhman

At a 50F, 60% is a lot drier than at 70F.

Are you sure about that?

You do make a good point, though, as long as we're talking completely sealed with very little extra space, humidity regulation shouldn't be an issue. If there's much extra space, you'd want some kind of regulation, though, as that extra space will contain more or less water vapor depending on temperature.

[duhman]

Absolute humidity = amount of water in the air
Relative humidity = amount the air can hold / amount in it

I notice it's per kg of air which means that under vacuum the air can hold less moisture.

[Scimmia]

First off, air doesn't "hold" moisture, we need to get that out right away. I haven't seen that chart before, and it doesn't make sense with everything else I've read. Such as this:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...tic/relhum.htm
Notice that they specifically say that you reach saturated vapor pressure at the same vapor density in a vacuum as you do with air present.
or this:
http://www.chemguide.co.uk/physical/...pourpress.html
or this:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wa...air-d_689.html

I also checked www.lenntech.com where that chart is supposed to be from, they're a water treatment company. I've seen similar charts using g of water per square meter on the y axis , I'm wondering if someone just screwed up.

[Pyro]

Originally Posted by Scimmia

First off, air doesn't "hold" moisture, we need to get that out right away...

But, the question is, if you replace air with water vapour in a closed container containing cigars and some humidifier, can anything but 100 % RH exist inside that container, regardless of gas pressure and/or temperature?