Kitty litter

[stig-cl]

So I'm thinking about experimenting with kitty litter over the summer in preparation for a larger humidor, and I've been doing searches and reading thread after thread on various forums about it, but it's exhausting because to find any information you have to wade through pages and pages of cat crap puns and people simply saying that it doesn't work.

So for those of you that do use kitty litter (I know there's a few of you here), what're your experiences? Did you have to condition them? If so, how? The main thing I'm having trouble imagining is the conditioning process. The general consensus seems to be that kitty litter beads generally ship in a condition where they'll maintain something like 30% RH. Supposedly, you can condition them by putting them in a situation where the RH is held at a proper RH, say 65%, for example, by putting the beads in a cooler with an Oasis or something, which will maintain the RH at 65%, and after that, the beads will be able to hold the conditioned RH of 65%. What I fail to see is what's changing during the conditioning process. Unless the structure of the silica is changing, I don't understand how the RH would suddenly change.

After all, what if you take these supposedly conditioned kitty litter beads and put them in a humidor that's somewhat dry and in need of humidification, so that the RH is less than 65%, say it's 40%. Wouldn't the kitty litter beads simply get reconditioned to 65%? I fail to see the difference between the conditioning stage and normal use.

[foolwithnohair]

I had the same experiences reading cr*p as you, so I did some basic research. I don't really have an answer to your main question (it is one of the things I wonder as well, hopefully I will have the answer soon, see below). However, yes, you have to condition.

On the general topic of beads, I haven't written up everything yet (I did make a couple of posts here) because I have ordered, but haven't yet received, the 'bible' on silica beads and RH control from the conservation institute here http://www.cci-icc.gc.ca/main_e.aspx .

Anyhow, I'm pretty sure that kitty litter is not the same as the Heartfelt or RH beads, but I do not know 100% for certain. If we assume that Heartfelt beads are silica beads with a particular salt (lithium chloride) in them, as I suspect, then the key difference will be in how much water the beads can give up or absorb in response to a change in RH.

For example, if we have one kg of kitty litter (silica-only beads), they will give up or absorb 1 gram of water for each percentage change in RH from 70%. However, if we have one kg of beads with Lithium Chloride, they will give up or absorb 13 grams of water for each percentage change from 70% RH.

However, the rate at which silica beads give up or absorb water doesn't change much between bead types.

Thus, performance is not changed, but you need a sh*tload more kitty litter to have the same capacity to absorb or give up moisture.

A good site about beads for art preservation is: http://www.cwaller.de/english.htm

[iloveclmore]

Kitty litter like... the gray stuff that you buy at the store?

[N2Advnture-cl]

Originally Posted by baldheadracing

...On the general topic of beads, I haven't written up everything yet (I did make a couple of posts here) because I have ordered, but haven't yet received, the 'bible' on silica beads and RH control from the conservation institute here...

Anyhow, I'm pretty sure that kitty litter is not the same as the Heartfelt or RH Beads, but I do not know 100% for certain. If we assume that Heartfelt beads and RH Beads are silica beads with a particular salt (lithium chloride) in them, as I suspect, then the key difference will be in how much water the beads can give up or absorb in response to a change in RH.

For example, if we have one kg of kitty litter (silica-only beads), they will give up or absorb 1 gram of water for each percentage change in RH from 70%. However, if we have one kg of beads with Lithium Chloride, they will give up or absorb 13 grams of water for each percentage change from 70% RH.

However, the rate at which silica beads give up or absorb water doesn't change much between bead types.

Thus, performance is not changed, but you need a sh*tload more kitty litter to have the same capacity to absorb or give up moisture....

Spot on assessment bro.

Just a little more info, not all humidity beads are created equally. The manufacturer for the RH Beads has engineered them to recover the most efficiently in the 60-70% RH range (see hysteresis curve). Others test better at recovery in the 50-60% RH and 70-80% RH ranges (and cost about 1/2 wholesale).

I hope this helps

~Mark

.

[nhcigarfan-cl]

Originally Posted by triplezero24

Kitty litter like... the gray stuff that you buy at the store?

No it is 100% silica kitty litter. You can find it at most supermarkets. It should have no order blockers or anything.

[cybervee-cl]

Why would you risk a substantial investment in cigars by skimping on humidification?

:leph:

I purchased the Heartfelt 65% beads some time ago and am very pleased with the results. And they have great customer service if you have any issues. They even have a bead calculator on their website so you know how much you need.

[iloveclmore]

Originally Posted by cybervee

Why would you risk a substantial investment in cigars by skimping on humidification?

:leph:

I purchased the Heartfelt 65% beads some time ago and am very pleased with the results. And they have great customer service if you have any issues. They even have a bead calculator on their website so you know how much you need.

I agree. You might as well spend the little extra cash to get something that works for sure, and will work long term. Heartfelt owns the bead industry with their customer service alone. I ordered some stuff from David last Saturday, and got it in the mail on Tuesday. Sweet.

[smokem-cl]

I use 1lb of beads in my cooler, along with 1lb of the kitty litter, and my cooler has been staying at 70/70 for months. The temp goes up and down a bit...it gets cold her in the winter months...but the RH stays in tune to the temp. I like 'em, amd I didn't do anything but add DW.

Edit to add: if you'd like to try some PM me your addy and I'll shoot you off a pound. I have more then 1/2 a bag left!

[karmaz00]

i tell you what. what i use and have been using for the past 6months are floral beads, water crystals, floarest use them to hold moisture and for floral arrangements. and they work awsome.. if you have a micheals or any craft store out there, check them out.

[FoZzMaN-cl]

Been using kitty litter (Exquisicat "Pearls") in 2 desktops & a cooler for the last several months. Basically I put about 1" of beads in a 2"x4"x6" (rough estimates) and 2 ~3" round tupperwares, and dampened ~80% of the beads with distilled water, then dropped them all into my cooler with a hygrometer & waited. It stabilized between 63-70% without doing much else. I added cigars slowly, adding more water if the % dropped below 60%. Once the humi was full of cigars and stabilized, I took out the 2 round tuppi's & kept an eye on it - % never really dropped significantly.

Put both the 3" tuppi's into one of the desktops until it stabilized between 65-70%, then dropped in some cigars & kept an eye on that until it stabilized. Then took one of the 3" tuppi's out, put it in the other desktop, etc.

Honestly, I've added water once or twice, and actually added more beads to the cooler once when it went to ~73% to dry it back out after I over-watered. Other than popping the lids every week or so out of (thus far unjustified) paranoia - it's been maintenance free.

I may have given up some extra space due to using less-efficient beads, but at $14 for an 8lb jug, I'm not complaining.

[stlcards]

Originally Posted by cybervee

Why would you risk a substantial investment in cigars by skimping on humidification?

My thoughts too. Check out N2Advnture (Mark) at www.cigarmony.com, he will hook you up.

[foolwithnohair]

Triplezero24: e.g., Petsmart Exquisicat cat litter (not the kind with blue beads sprinkled in).

Mark: Thank-you VERY much for your input. I've seen that graph before in slightly different form . I apologize for not mentioning RH beads as much as I did Heartfelt in this and previous posts - this was simply because I have purchased Heartfelt's product and haven't had any reason to switch, so I don't have any actual experience with your product, RH beads.

However, now that I've seen the graph, I know that you sell the good stuff!

Cybervee: that calculator is for the minimum amount. If you look at Heartfelt's bead page, they have an "Important" note that is very, very, true in my experiences so far.

Jason: good source of humidity, and should work well where you are (the only mediterranean climate in Canada). What I personally don't like about crystals is that one has to use propylene glycol to make crystals absorb humidity.

Everyone: Kitty litter works - I have a jug of Exquisicat and have run tests. The only issue is the quantity required for the same level of 'protection' and the need to condition. (Heartfelt and RH beads are conditioned before your get them.) I do, however, use primarily Heartfelt beads and sheets. Every time my humidor is opened, the air has to be corrected severely to get back to a decent humidity. With 20% ambient RH in winter, and 100% ambient RH in summer, I live in humidor hell . I had to go to active humidification (Hydra) for my daily smoke humidor, plus lots of beads (and bead sheet).

Factors that make more beads/humidification necessary (not in any order):
- extremes in ambient RH/temp conditions vs. moderate conditions
- bigger humidor vs. smaller humidor (obviously)
- more free air inside vs. packed (although packed can lead to air distribution issues)
- side opening vs. top opening
- opening daily vs. rarely opening
- loose sticks vs. cigars in boxes
- cello on boxes vs. boxes that have been opened
- cello on loose sticks vs. cello off
- beads more than an inch deep vs. thin layers of beads (single layer is best, but yeah, right ...)
- beads in one place vs. beads all over the place
- humidification at the top of the humidor vs. the bottom.

Some of these factors interact - loose sticks with cello off is, for example.

Finally, keep in mind that we actually want to control the moisture content of the tobacco in the cigar - not the moisture content in the air (or RH). RH of the air is just a proxy measure (which is why I suspect that the "ideal" RH varies a bit - just a bit - with temperature - but that's a separate debate!)

I stand to be corrected on any of the above. YMMV.

[stig-cl]

cybervee: I actually did buy half a pound of Heartfelt beads when I first got started. It's just that kitty litter is so appealing because it's so cheap for such a huge amount (several pounds for less than half a pound of Heartfelt). My Heartfelt beads are all cracking and turning into dust as well, despite the fact that to refill them, I dump all of them out of their various dishes and tubes onto a paper towel, and slowly mist them with an extremely fine mist to recharge them. I'm running out of nice solid beads to put into the tubes, and after I fill the tubes, I gotta rotate them a bit over a trash can to get rid of the bead dust that rains out so they don't get all over the place in my humidors.

I'm still not convinced that the conditioning process actually changes any of the structural properties of the kitty litter beads. I haven't come across any real rigorous tests of the kitty litter, and unless I come across anything else, my opinion of kitty litter is this: it's not conditioned to hold any specific RH. At all. It's made of silica gel beads, which are capable of both absorbing and releasing water, but not at any set RH. Instead, when you're "conditioning them," you're actually just charging a certain proportion of the beads so that, together, they hold RH around the level they're "conditioned" at. They might be able to return to the conditioned level of RH from slight variations; if you raise the humidity, the dry beads should absorb faster, and vice versa for lowering the humidity.

I've only ever seen situations where conditioned kitty litter beads are taken out of their element. What I mean is, the only experiments testing the effectiveness of the KL I've seen basically take the KL, directly after it's been conditioned, and stick it in a closed container with a hygrometer to see what RH it holds. This fails to test whether the KL is actually going to maintain the conditioned RH, or whether it's in the situation I described above. What needs to be done is put the KL in the extremes. After it's been conditioned, let them dry completely, and put them in a closed container with a cup of water and a hygrometer. If the KL beads are actually conditioned to hold a specific RH, then what SHOULD happen is that the water in the cup will all evaporate, the beads will have absorbed some water, and the hygrometer should read 65% (or whatever the conditioned level is). Same goes for the opposite situation. You should be able to take the conditioned KL, saturate them with water, put them in an especially dry container with a hygrometer, and the beads should release water until it's at 65% RH inside. These two tests would convince me of whether KL is actually conditioned or not. I know the Heartfelt beads are capable of the two situations I just described, and that's why I think Heartfelt beads are amazing.

baldheadracing: Wow, great insight into why ideal RH varies. I'd never actually thought about it, but it does make sense. If you have two containers of the same size, with the same amount of water content in the air inside (say 1mL of water), but container A is at 70F while container B is at 60F, hygrometers placed inside would definitely read different RH's, say for example 65% in container A and 70% in container B. However, both containers have the same water content and thus would provide the same humidification to cigars, and cigars placed in either should smoke exactly the same.

So basically, people in the warmer states should prefer lower RH, and since it seems the vast majority of smokers are in Texas, maybe that's why so many prefer 65%. On the other hand, since I'm in a more moderate climate, maybe I should give 70% a try. I've just been blindly using 65% based on everyone else's usage.

[coach-cl]

i have use the "kitty litter" and my smokes have been fine. price wise it's cheaper,not to take away from the vendors but....if the wheel ain't broke why fix it? IMO

I use the Pearls in my desk tops and the beads in my chinador and coolers.

r

[foolwithnohair]

Stig, I conditioned KL and it works as you describe how the Heartfelt beads work. I have a pound or so of KL that is 'stuck' at 75%. As another example I tried some I conditioned to 65% against a Hydra running at 70%, and they will force the tray that they are in to stay at 65% (farthest away from the Hydra). Take the KL out, and that tray goes to 70%.

The museum manuals all give procedures for conditioning, and the same procedure is used for KL-type and Heartfelt/RH-type beads. I think it has to do with the physical structure of silica (micropores?) and how the water - or perhaps some water - is retained. However, I hope there will be a decent explanation in the book I'm getting. (I hate not having a clue how something works.)

Funny, I never have had an issue with Heartfelt beads breaking and I'm pretty aggressive spraying. KL, OTOH, cracks super easy for me.

As for 70% vs. 65%, I think some or most of it may have to do with the characteristics of cigars/tobacco as well. Have a look at the diagrams posted at http://www.tabacordillera.com/cigar-...o-humidity.htm
That link explained a lot to me, and seems reasonable.