65% Beads - 62F & 80%RH - Beads are Dry

[RLembke]

You know, I went back and read that FAQ page on CigarGroup again.....

http://www.cigargroup.com/faq/#5.0

I think I disagree with the PhD statements quite a bit as he discusses temperature's impact on water wanting to evaporate more easily but he does not discuss the interacting of the changing vapor pressure that would be influencing the counteracting condensation.

True?

[Hydrated]

My brain hurts.

[RLembke]

A few AWESOME articles on this page......

http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catal...roductID=27844

This Steven Weintraub guy seems to be the world expert of silica gel and using it for the preservation of art. He was the chief consultant on protecting the Bill of Rights when it was sent overseas several years back.

[RLembke]

Originally Posted by Hydrated

My brain hurts.

Feels good, doesn't it?

[Scimmia]

I can't wait to read these; unfortunatly, I've got a busy day at the office. I'll read them tonight.

I have seen that article on the cigargroup, but never really got it until things started making sense for me in this thread. He is getting at the same thing I was saying without refering directly to vapor pressure; that you need more water in vapor to maintain the moisture in the leaf since the evaporation rate is higher.

I think I'm gonna give something a shot, I'll put some beads, couple of cheaper cigars, and a remote read hygrometer in a tupperware container, then stick them in the fridge. I'll see how the beads react, then I'll smoke one in a week, and one in a month, and see how they feel/smoke.

[fizguy]

A related issue:

I first calibrated my hygrometers at my old house where I could, thanks to modern technology like INSULATION, keep the house in the 70 degree range. They all were calibrated a bit high, giving a reading above the true RH. (I used the salt test)

I re-calibrated them the other day after changing the battery in one of them. I am in a different house now where I can only afford to keep it in the 60 degree range and this time, using the salt test, they appeared to be *low*.

So what do I believe? Is it just because of the temperature difference at the old versus new house? Should I be adding or subtracting to the reading to obtain the true RH?

[RLembke]

After reading more of Steven's materials, I now think I have a different hypothesis for what's happened in my case.

I think my beads have been reconditioned to maintain a higher humidity (~80%). Think of the media as nothing more than a buffer. It doesn't appear that there is anything physically different from 65% beads and 70% beads.

An abstract from Steven's "Demystifying Silica Gel" states:

The simplest method for conditioning silica gel is to place it in a room or environmental chamber set to the desired RH level. The best method of confirming that the silica gel is at the correct RH is by measuring the RH of a sample batch. This is done by placing the sample gel in a sealed container or plastic bag with a hygrometer.....

When we are purchasing 65% beads or 70% beads, I don't think there is anything different between them...those beads have just been 'conditioned' to that RH. In my case, I think my beads have been conditioned up to 80% somehow. Way too much water in there for a few days was probably enough to do it.

Right now I have my beads sitting out at 30% RH. I'll take some and seal them up with a hygro tonight and see what they are now 'conditioned' at.

[madurolover]

Interesting discussion here guys but IMO you are trying to over-think the situation.
Being on the coast in S.C. I can tell you we have numerous temp./humidity
changes that happen very quickly and my beads seem to be up to the task regardless.
We all know that extreme temps(too high/too low) are not good for our cigars so if we keep them regulated somewhat then I think the beads will
do their job.

Could you have gotten faulty beads?-possible
Could the beads have somehow reconditioned?-not being an expert I could not say.
It is my opinion that you somehow got some bad beads and that with a replacement you will see a change for the better.

[Scimmia]

You know, I ALMOST posted about the beads possibly being reconditioned when this all started, but I figured that if you were really at 80% RH, your cigars would be in much worse shape, making me think it was more of a hygrometer issue.

I'll be interested to see leaving them a very low RH for a while changes things.

[RLembke]

I remember your mention of the reconditioning real early on. I read it on a website that sells the ART-SORB beads (I'm almost positive that's what we have here) and it discussed the reconditioning process. I blew it off as crazy....I'm convinced that is what has happened here.

I don't think there is such a thing as 65% or 70% beads. I think we have beads that come preconditioned (I'd be curious about this process now) to a certain RH but then they can pretty much be set to buffer any RH.

All those discussions about how you can't put 1/2 lb of 65% beads and 1/2 lb of 70% beads together to get 67.5% because they will be constantly fighting each other....not true. I think the whole group will settle at 67.5%.

This should probably be sounded as an FYI to folks with beads. Just because you have beads doesn't mean you're sitting at 65% or whatever the beads are supposed to 'make it'. If your humidor is at 60% and you put half dry/half wet beads in, the humidity will rise. The beads will give off moisture. BUT, you can continue to add water to the beads and the beads will continue to give off that moisture...they will not just stop once 65% is reached. The beads really don't care what RH you want. They will give up water to match the environment and they will adsorb water to match the environment.

The beads are really acting as nothing more than a buffer. They are hygroscopic material just like our cigars are. The beads only purpose is to try and take up the fluctuation slack for our cigars so they don't have to. If you don't have the proper amount of water in the system to maintain the RH you want, the beads can't help you.

[RLembke]

Originally Posted by madurolover

Interesting discussion here guys but IMO you are trying to over-think the situation.
Being on the coast in S.C. I can tell you we have numerous temp./humidity
changes that happen very quickly and my beads seem to be up to the task regardless.
We all know that extreme temps(too high/too low) are not good for our cigars so if we keep them regulated somewhat then I think the beads will
do their job.

Could you have gotten faulty beads?-possible
Could the beads have somehow reconditioned?-not being an expert I could not say.
It is my opinion that you somehow got some bad beads and that with a replacement you will see a change for the better.

Thanks for the comments and thoughts.

I wouldn't call it overthinking....it's more of the engineer in me wanting to understand what is happening here. I know things will be "just fine" at 70/70....but why? Why not 60/80? Why are the beads letting the humidor get to 80%RH? I like understanding things instead of just accepting things.

Faulty beads - I don't think there is such a thing...read explanation above.

Reconditioned - I'm almost positive that's what happened.

[Scimmia]

OK, I lied, I read the articles, and you may have something there, a constant VPD may be the correct way to keep cigars. It would also explain why cigars don't do well at temperature extremes; VPD seems to have a direct relationship with RH (like AH), but nowhere near the drastic relationship that makes AH obviously wrong (do your cigars need to be in a bucket of water at 50F?). We'd only be looking at a couple point RH swing in the extremes that most cigars should ever see, though, so I'll probably keep using RH as a close approximation.

On the beads, I agree that the RH designation is just what they're pre-conditioned for, but as long as your humi is relatively sealed and monitored, your RH should never drift away from that pre-conditioned point enough to re-condition the beads. Of course, you may have just disproved that.

Originally Posted by RLembke

All those discussions about how you can't put 1/2 lb of 65% beads and 1/2 lb of 70% beads together to get 67.5% because they will be constantly fighting each other....not true. I think the whole group will settle at 67.5%.

See, I'm not sure if I'd buy that, maybe over a long period of time, they would all recondition and fall in the middle, but I do think the beads have a "memory" of sorts. I'll have to re-read some of the info on silica gel.

[shaggy]

i thought this was done...

good discussion tho

[Scimmia]

Originally Posted by shaggy

i thought this was done...

good discussion tho

[RLembke]

Originally Posted by Scimmia

On the beads, I agree that the RH designation is just what they're pre-conditioned for, but as long as your humi is relatively sealed and monitored, your RH should never drift away from that pre-conditioned point enough to re-condition the beads. Of course, you may have just disproved that.

I would agree, with the following stipulations:

- That the beads are at close to 50% saturation when they go in

- That the humidor is already very close to your target RH

The beads help regulate things but they will not change the total amount of moisture in the system. If the system goes too far either way, things will go wrong. Apparently, this isn't that hard to do.

I have an experiment, complete with before, during and after photos that will determine for sure if my beads have magically reconditioned themselves.

It may very well be possible that there is memory of some kind but from all the technical discussions that Weintraub goes into, he never mentions "be sure to get the right beads for your application". All he says about specific RH's is that it is better to use certain type of silica gel for different ranges of RH, of which the "ART SORB" type is our best bet (above 60%RH). I don't know for sure but I am under the assumption that these are the beads we are using.

I'm thinking of the beads as nothing but a hygroscopic buffer and nothing more. They are just like our cigars..they are only more massive in their adsorption ability than our cigars (see the organic material vs silica gel graph in Weintraub's article).

Right now, my 'cigar beads' are having to release all of their 'buffer' moisture...they are used to the 80%RH. With no beads or any other type of hydration in the frig, I can completely change out the air for ambient air (currently at 50%) and within hours the cigars have released enough moisture to bring the RH back above 70%. It's getting better..but there's a lot of moisture in there.