Aging

[Kukla]

On average, what is the longest you can age a cigar in 70-degree temperatures and 70-percent humidity before it drops down again from its peak taste?

[cliff_be]

well, the great davidoff said; 15years.
now, I have spoken to some cigar sellers and they said you can store them for as long as you want.

I've smoked some pre castro's and some cuban davidoff's and for me they are great...

[madurolover]

Smoked a cigar a few weeks ago that was about 60 years old. It was very nice.

[Pac]

Originally Posted by madurolover

Smoked a cigar a few weeks ago that was about 60 years old. It was very nice.

What was it?

I have a couple of late 60's RyJ for celebrating my 40th, and a couple of late 70's Monte for my brother's 30th (both took place in October but we haven't had the time to sit down together yet). From the same source I picked up a box (10ct) of Monte#4 from -85.. have smoked one so far, and that one was great! Really makes me look forward to when I have the time for the other two aged sticks (one of each, since my brother's going to smoke the other two..)

I guess it's a question of the quality of the tobacco in the cigar, whether or not it will get better with age. Premium CC's seem to work well, I'll see what a couple of years will do to my box of Camacho SLR maduro and Padron 2000 nat that I have put at the bottom of the coolerdor.. if I can keep my hands away from them.

So to try and answer the OP, it depends on what you start with.

/Pac

[madurolover]

It was a clear havana, a White Owl I believe.

[chippewastud79]

Aging is all in the eye of the beholder. Some people swear by clear havanas and some people think they taste like cardboard. Some people think that all cigars need 10 years minimum, some NC's would be considered past their peak at 10 years. Like most things in cigar smoking, it is personal preference.

[Cyanide]

Hate to hijack this forum (hopefully it doesn't go that direction)....

But, does anyone have an opinion on skipping the "no man zone" of 2 weeks to 1 year. Combining information from multiple sources, there seems to be a belief that a cigar is best either within the first two weeks from purchase, or (if the cigar has aging potential) after a year of aging/storage. That seems to imply that a period exists between 2 weeks and 52 weeks where the quality of a cigar dips down and significantly sub-optimum.

Now, I don't seem to think of any plausible reason why this would be. So, I am inclined to not believe it. But, weirder things have proven true in real-life. Does anyone else think this phenomenon is real? Is there a way to avoid/shorten/postpone this 50 week trough? Will I be perpetually buying cigars to smoke quickly while I let my original stash reach its first anniversary (since I bought them at least)? Oh, the agony of it all!!!

Cheers

Cyanide

[NCRadioMan]

Originally Posted by Cyanide

Hate to hijack this forum (hopefully it doesn't go that direction)....

But, does anyone have an opinion on skipping the "no man zone" of 2 weeks to 1 year. Combining information from multiple sources, there seems to be a belief that a cigar is best either within the first two weeks from purchase, or (if the cigar has aging potential) after a year of aging/storage. That seems to imply that a period exists between 2 weeks and 52 weeks where the quality of a cigar dips down and significantly sub-optimum.

Now, I don't seem to think of any plausible reason why this would be. So, I am inclined to not believe it. But, weirder things have proven true in real-life. Does anyone else think this phenomenon is real? Is there a way to avoid/shorten/postpone this 50 week trough? Will I be perpetually buying cigars to smoke quickly while I let my original stash reach its first anniversary (since I bought them at least)? Oh, the agony of it all!!!

Cheers

Cyanide

Sounds like you are talking about the "sick period". And yes, it does exist.

Let me quote Tama1257

Originally Posted by Tamp1257

A couple of years ago, I wrote this about what the "Sick Period" is. What got me thinking about this was the question about why the PSD4's go into this transitional period and how long they stay there. Well, I also believe that it would make for a good discussion and help other Gorillas as well.

Many cigar smokers have commented over the years that some of their cigars have gone into a “sick period”, or in other words that when they smoke the cigar, that the flavors, tastes and complexity has become flat, bland and has some annoying ammonia smell, or in some degree off balance from what the profile of the same cigar smoked like a few short months, weeks or years ago. The discussion of cigars has never before reached the levels that let’s say Wine has, but with the educated level of the cigar aficionados in today’s market, these discussions are quickly and exponentially reaching this educated level. There is no consensus that I know of regarding the “Sick Period”.

When we explore what happens to cigars as they age, we find that while chemistry plays an important part in this hobby of ours, the general “layman” is not a student of these things, and the understanding of this is often misunderstood.

When a cigar is rolled, the tobacco has been fermenting or a period of time since it was harvested. Typically it takes a couple of years from harvest before the tobacco is ready to be rolled. Thus, the cigars that are box coded from 2004 are in actually tobacco that was harvested from the 2002 crop. When you consider the major change in blends that occurred with Habanos cigars around 1995; which co-insides with the period that Cuba had a period of Ligero shortage, the flavors of cigars produced during that period were affected. Now also consider this along with the flavor and construction issues of cigars from the late 99-00 period, we now find that with some age and maturation of these cigars, the flavors are beginning to come out and have developed into a pleasant tasting and complex smoking cigar.

Let us take a cigar through its cycle of you will. Once the tobacco has been fermented to the point that it is ready to be rolled into a cigar, it is wetted so that it is pliable enough to be worked and rolled. Once the tobacco is harvested, it is always in a state of fermentation, or for better or worse, aging. It actually never stops the fermentation process or aging. Many cigars that are fresh off the rollers table if smoked immediately even though very tannic and young tasting have a pleasant flavor, but most would agree that a fresh cigar is not extremely complex. This brings up several issues that are scientifically proven. There are three major activities that have a part in the fermentation process of tobacco; they are a. oxygen exposure, b. temperature, c. humidity. The more humid a cigar is, the more the fermentation that is occurring in the tobacco. Thus, the fresher a cigar is from the rollers table, the more that it is subject to higher amounts of fermentation and then takes time to stabilize and become blended to its desired state. The different tobaccos used; weather it is Volado, Seco or Ligero in the filler, binder or wrapper has not had a chance to “marry” and blend together and make the cigar a true tasting Habanos that it will develop into one day in the future. So, now the cigar is rolled and let’s say that it has already gone through the process of color sorting and placed into wheels and gone through the drying rooms and has been boxed for shipment out to the various distributors and thus the retailers for sale to the end user. I have seen available boxes already with early 2005 codes available for purchase. These would IMHO be considered very new and young cigars, which I would not even consider smokable for total enjoyment, but that is another subject, so I will not venture there in this post.

Some people have experienced smoking cigars that are in a period of flux in the aging process, which has been called the sick period. Many have stated that during this period the cigar will give off an ammonia type smell or flavor, which they associate with the fermentation or aging process. There is IMHO no exact period that the “sick period” can or will occur, but the cigar is always in a constant state of transition while it continues to develop, age and mature. I am a believer that aging is a process that all true lovers of the Habanos leaf will gain better flavors from. If I smoke a cigar and it is off balance, flat or what some call a “sick period”, then I leave the remainder of them alone buried deep in sleep resting in my humidor for some time, because I know that the cigar will change again and become a vibrant superb tasting, complex smoke again if leave them alone over time. I try to smoke the majority of the cigars I smoke with at least 3 years of age from the box code so that the tobacco has had ample time to blend together and stabilize. When I smoke a cigar that has longer aging, such as 5-8 years on them, they have usually been stellar tasting cigars. Smoking young cigars is in my opinion, almost a waste of time and money, but each different cigar smoker needs to make their own judgment and decision about when and how to enjoy their cigars.

Tampa

[Dgar]

Every cigar is different, and as far as when its past its peak...thats subjective as well, everyones peak is different. The aging process happens over years. Stored @ 70/70 I would guess you've easily got ten years.

I suggest sampling the cigars as you age them, smoke one every few months, or at least yearly to see how there aging. Reason being I just smoked a couple cuban cigars from 2000 and I was really disapointed, the construction was terrible, so i waited 8 years to smoke a poorly constructed cigars...

Buy more than you smoke, and you'll begin to age ciagrs without much effort, and then you'll be able to see which cigars age to your liking...

As far as a sick period, its real.... you only have to smoke one ammonia bomb to understand, usually I find this to be more common in Cuban cigars. Just put then away for six months and try again... you may be surprised.

[icehog3]

Tough to put "dates" on the sick period of cigars. Let's say a certain cigar has a "sick period" that lasts from about 6 months out until it is a year old.

You buy a box, and think "I better smoke a few of these before the six month mark before they are 'sick'".

But maybe these cigars were rolled 9 months ago and have been sitting on a distributor or B&M shelf, and are already in their sick period.

Or maybe they are a year old, and already out of it.

Very general....but you see my point? Smell 'em, smoke 'em, it will be tough to tell much until you do. If you light one up and it ain't right, but the box down for another 6-12 months and try again. There is no "formula" you can use to predict it.

[mosesbotbol]

Originally Posted by Kukla

On average, what is the longest you can age a cigar in 70-degree temperatures and 70-percent humidity before it drops down again from its peak taste?

When did it drop down the first time?

Virtually anyone who ages cigars en masse for the long haul keeps humdity closer to 60-percent. If you are using a desktop humidor, you may run into some difficulty aging cigars for a long time. Things (and accidents) are more prone in a desktop humidor.

I think I understand you question, assuming ideal conditions, how long can a cigar age?

There are other factors such as whether the box has been opened or not and the particular cigar. Certainly 20+ years is not a stretch at all. Whether you like a cigar at certain age (taste wise) is a factor too. There is no ideal.

[Cyanide]

Assuming that Tampa's statements are reliably expert (hey, in my field of work, you need to be aware of all the implied assumptions):

At this point the "sick period", in reference to a quality cigar, can be defined as:

1) a finite period of time where a cigar will likely taste: flat, bland, off-balance, non-complex
2) there may or may not be an aroma and or taste of ammonia associated with smoking the cigar. This sensation seems to be mostly applied to the lit cigar
3) This phenomenon may be associated with the fermentation process, and may be affected by conditions that also affect teh fermentation process....such as temperature, oxygen exposure, humidity

So, that gets my brain pumping:

First, on issues of "detection" or "diagnosis" of the sick period:
A) Has anyone noticed an ammonia smell from cigars in the humidor that were then subsequently determined to be "sick"?
B) Has anyone been able to reliably detect ammonia from cigars that were not sick (by reliable I mean, you KNOW it was from the suspect cigar and not its humidor neighbour)?
These two questions address the sensitivity and specificity of the "ammonia test".
C) Are there other signs or symptoms that can be used to determine if a cigar is in the sick phase? Besides "family history", where "his brother was sick last night."

Then, I think about prevention and treatment:
Assuming that fermentation is somehow involved, and acknowledging that humidity, oxygen availability and temperature are the hallmark rate limiting factors in many biological processes...it would seem that cellular metabolism is somehow involved. This could be fungal (truly a "fermentation" then) or bacterial. It is unlikely that this process be residual or intrinsic to the original leaf's metabolism during its natural life. Other things that might also affect it then would be "build up of waste products", thus air ventilation may also affect it. Other energy sources would also affect it, such as sunlight/UV light. Of course, availibility of a metabolizable energy source would also affect this, but likely the tobacco itself is this source and probably can't be easily manipulated.

Thus, manipulating oxygen, ventilation, temperature, light exposure, humidity may affect the ability to control aging and or the sick period.

Thus:
a) storing at a lower temperature may postpone the sick period, also the aging process
b) storing at a higher temperature may promote the sickening process, or could go to the extent of damaging the aging process altogether (by killing off microbes if taken to an extreme)
c) improved ventilation may both speed the aging process, quicken onset of sick period but could also decrease some of the symptoms of the aging process (diluting any ammonia products)
d) decreased ventilation may slow aging process and may postpone the sick period, but the oxygen already available would probably be enough to get the cigar to the sick period anyway, and would allow ammonia to build up
e) light exposure mostly increases temperature. But, could also kill microbes and may thus damage cigars similar to high temperature as well (beyond the simple temperature consideration).
f) Oxygen. High oxygen environs will probably speed sick onset and aging process. Low oxygen will probably slow sick onset and aging.

So maybe, if I have pre-sick cigars that I want to burn soon:
I may want to store them at a:
lower temperature (60)
lower humidity (60)
ventilated reasonably
out of light
in a high nitrogen environment (just kidding....or am I?)
Further, high altitude environs (eg Alberta Canada, Colorado) probably post-pone the sick period, and slow aging

And, if I have a cigar I intend to let age for a while, but not forever:
I may want to store them at a:
higher temperature (70)
higher humidity (70)
ventilated reasonably (can't loose with that)
out of light (can't loose with that)
in a fairly oxygen rich environment (pure oxygen, sea-level)

Of course, aging for a long time is probably best done by the old adage "start low, go slow" temperature and humidity wise.

And now treatment:
Well this has gone on long enough. I would assume that treatment is time (let the cigar age its way out of sickness). Speeding the process would be higher temperature, humidity, ventilation, oxygen (send them to a friend on the coast).

There may be some nifty ideas in there, but it all seems logical. Maybe it gives some rationality for why people inherently like certain temp/humidity combination. Or, maybe I have just wasted company time writing this out.

Cheers

Cyanide

PS: What info does the sticker on the bottom of the cigar cabinet give? I assume that it is when the cigars got shoved in the box. Thus, that is probably soon after the cigar was made, and likely the leaf is already 2 years old. Nonetheless, I assume that the sticker date is the "birthdate". So if I just bought a box of cigars that were stamped May 08, likely they are at least 6 months old. This still means almost nothing in reference to the when the sick period would begin or end. But I think I will start asking for the box dates when I am buying single cigars as well.

[icehog3]

The date stamped on the bottom of Cuban cigar boxes and cabinets are the date the cigars were boxed.

Your post was well thought out! As for the conclusions you have reached, I will say....."Maybe.....maybe not".

[Cyanide]

Ya, like any hypothesis generation....you can think out all the known information...but the conclusions always have to be taken with skepticism until proven to be correct or absolutely bumpkis.

Cheers

Cyanide

[Pac]

As I've understood it (and as I've been told from fellow BOTL's) cc's are usually made with fresher tobacco, most nc's use leaves that have been sitting around fermenting for a longer time to be smokeable right away.

I guess this is because Cuba is in need of funds and try to move their assets out as soon as possible, and storing/aging/fermenting tobacco leaves more than needed is probably considered unnecessary when they sell all they can produce as it is.

And as for the ammonia-smell in a sick cigar, it is really noticeable.. I have an ERdM Exclusivo Baltico -07 that had a nauseating smell of chicken manure when I got it, and the BOTL that traded it said it is because of it's young age. Now, just a month later, it smells great. In a year or so, when I smoke it, I assume it will taste great

/Pac