Same cigar, slightly different shape... worth substantially different $$$ ?

[baglorious]

I'm a relative newb, and becoming a fan of the standard Montecristos.

I have smoked various types and sizes of cigars, and obviously know that there are substantially different characteristics smoking a different make of the same "kind" of cigar. For example, smoking a Montecristo #1 (6.50 x 44) versus a Monte Robusto (5.00 x 50)... is a different experience. I am not of a skilled enough palate to articulate the real differences, but even this lowly noob can tell differences between the "feel" of the cigar itself (the actual size of it in your mouth), the length of time to smoke it, and the look... and all those things make the experience different, whether or not I can actually "taste" a difference in the smokes. (I don't doubt that some can, but I can't.)

ANYWAY, that leads me to my question... I really dig Montecristos currently, and may pick up a box in the future.

Looking at TNT, for example... I'm wondering about the size differences in the context of VALUE of the cigar purchase:

Montecristo #2 (Torpedo): 6.00 x 50 - $193.95.
Montecristo Double Corona: 6.25 x 50 - $143.95.

Sure, I like Torpedos. They're neat. I guess it is more fun to have a cigar with some shape to it, and the #2 seems to be the "classic" Monte. But by they time you cut a bit of the "curve" of the torpedo... you're looking at something that, in my opinion, just isn't that far from the Double Corona, but $50 (approx 35%) more expensive.

From a consumer standpoint... is there really a reason to purchase the #2? Does the curve of the Torpedo make a significant difference in the flavor/temp/quality of the smoke? Seems to me to be quite a bit of a price increase for a cigar of the same leaf and the same size, if you can get over the fact that one is a torpedo and one is "standard."

I'm sure there's the "if it is worth it to you, it is worth it" answer... and that's fair enough. I'm just interested in your opinions, and to see whether there are any objective reasons why a person would pay for the #2 over the DC. Any specific justifications this lowly noob doesn't know about? Does it really, supposedly "taste" better? It is the same quality/kind of leaf, correct?

(And I'm not questioning the manufacturing/marketing issues... I'm sure it costs more to make the #2, and there's nothing wrong with trying to make a higher profit on your 'classic' version.)

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

[havana_lover]

the question is does Montecristo think there worth it??

and they do..

[Baric]

Originally Posted by baglorious

I'm sure there's the "if it is worth it to you, it is worth it" answer... and that's fair enough. I'm just interested in your opinions, and to see whether there are any objective reasons why a person would pay for the #2 over the DC. Any specific justifications this lowly noob doesn't know about? Does it really, supposedly "taste" better? It is the same quality/kind of leaf, correct?

When i first started purchasing i made the same 'value' mistake - i couldnt figure out why people would buy robusto cigars when for only $0.40 extra per cigar they could get the churchill variety, and 2 inches more tobacco. This was when i was buying cigars quicker than i smoked them and so the differences were not noticeable.

However there is a big difference often in cigars. Blends differ between vitolas - very often the torpedo will be different than the robusto or whatever. This is more true in cubans than in NCs, where 'lines' are used within brands. However, i think you mean the NC Monte so...
Within NC lines, the smoke can still be different as the size of the cigar dictates not necessarily the blend (ie what leaf is used) but the mix quantities. Smaller cigars need more tobacco to stabilise the burn (so it doesnt smoke away quickly and harshly like a ciggy), bigger cigars do not need as much, proportionately, so can include more of the tasty leaf, etc etc. Decisions like this mean the same blend will be used, keeping the line as the same 'line', but different vitolas mean different quantities and therefore different ways it smokes.

Less importantly, the size of the gar affects things like how hot the cigar draws (smaller the hotter they get more easily) and so on which all contribute.

When deciding, check out top25cigar's database to see which vitolas are best.

Hope that helps!

[dbradley]

I was looking at some Torano Signatures and had similar thoughts with their perfectos.

5 X 52 Robusto - $85
5 X 51 Perfecto - $120

$35 difference for basically the same sized cigar? Now don't get me wrong, I love perfectos, I just have a hard time thinking that they are worth the extra money.

[discdog]

I've tried the various sizes of a lot of different cigars. I find I can't determine a difference in taste between two cigars of the same line in the same size. Generally, not always, but enough for me to make a conscience decision to buy toro sizes instead of torpedo's. I've also been told the price difference is merely the fact that it is more expensive to roll perfecto or torpedo sizes, therefore, they cost more.
Now where I do find a consistant change of flavor/strength is when drastically changing sizes. For instance: a lancero/toro, or a corona /torpedo. Then there is no doubt I find the difference. And all of this is just my

[baglorious]

Originally Posted by havana_lover

the question is does Montecristo think there worth it??

and they do..

Not trying to be a jerk... but, no, that isn't the question. That is, quite specifically, "not" the question. The question is with regard to the consumer only, not with managing/marketing/manufacturing decisions.

Obviously, Montecristo's owners/management/marketing department agree that the #2 should be sold at a significantly higher price than the Double Corona, which is about the same size. Clearly, they are selling them, and clearly people are buying them... so the folks at Montecristo indeed know what they are doing. (We should all buy stock, eh?)

I'm purely looking at this from a consumer's perspective, and trying to determine whether the consumer's willingness to pay 35% more returns a tangible benefit to the consumer.

That's the question I'm trying to focus on. (Sorry... not trying to be a confrontational about it.)

[baglorious]

Originally Posted by Baric

... there is a big difference often in cigars. Blends differ between vitolas - very often the torpedo will be different than the robusto or whatever. This is more true in cubans than in NCs, where 'lines' are used within brands. However, i think you mean the NC Monte so...
Within NC lines, the smoke can still be different as the size of the cigar dictates not necessarily the blend (ie what leaf is used) but the mix quantities. Smaller cigars need more tobacco to stabilise the burn (so it doesnt smoke away quickly and harshly like a ciggy), bigger cigars do not need as much, proportionately, so can include more of the tasty leaf, etc etc. Decisions like this mean the same blend will be used, keeping the line as the same 'line', but different vitolas mean different quantities and therefore different ways it smokes.
Hope that helps!

Thanks Baric... I was aware of the structure of the cigar affecting the draw (which seems reasonable enough), but I was not aware at all that different blends are used between different vitolas, nor am I sure about the "lines" issue between blends, and (unfortunately) you confused me a bit. To be honest, I think there's a lot that I thought I knew that I don't. Let me ask a few more questions in response to your response!

1. I was under the impression that the same tabacco/blend/stuff was used in the same cigar if it was the same "kind" (though not size) of cigar. For example (and lets switch brands), I though if I buy a Rocky Patel Vintage 1990, the same wrapper is used, and the same "stuff" (tobacco? filler?) is used on the inside whether it is a torpedo, toro, robusto, petit corona, churchill, or whatever, so long as it is a "Rocky Patel Vintage 1990." Is that incorrect? Is it not the same "stuff" inside the wrapper?

You mentioned "blends", "mix", and "lines", and I want to make sure I know what you're referring to.

2. Is the "blend" the actual tobacco inside the wrapper? Tobacco plus filler? (What is the filler? I didn't think there actually was any filler that isn't tobacco inside of cigars... I thought they were all tobacco?) By "blend", then, are we talking about the ratio of tobacco (or tobaccos) and filler in a cigar? (And I'm thinking blend/mix are interchangeable words? Or not?)

3. SO, if "blend" means, for example, that a standard Montecristo is composed of "A" (tobacco type 1), "B" (tobacco type 2), and "C" (filler?), does that mean that all Montecristos have the same "blend", but the components A, B, and C, but in different ratios? (Meaning the "ingredients" are the same... but the literal mix is different?)

3. By "lines", I think you mean, for example, the difference between "RP Vintage 1990" vs. "RP Vintage 1992". Is that what you're talking about? If so, I understand that part... and I expected those to differ in "content" inside the cigar.

LOL... I've asked a mouthful, and probably some very basic questions. (Which I would have thought I'd know the answers to by now!)

Anyway, if you have the time... please explain what you mean by "blends."

If the "blend" (i.e., the contents of the cigar) are different between the different vitolas (sizes?) of the same "line", then I guess I can easily understand why the prices are different, and why different sizes arguably differ in flavor/quality of the smoke. I was under the impression that it was the same "stuff" and "blend/mix" of stuff in cigars of the same line. (I.e., I thought the Monte DC and Monte #2 were exactly the same, other than size.)

So, if you can clue me in, great. OR, if you can direct me to some links that explain it... that would also be swell.

Thanks

[discdog]

The "blend" will be a little different when you change ring gauge. Obviously there is less tobacco in a lancero than in a torpedo. But the "blend" is typically the same, but because you have more filler, the taste will change.

Also, I think you missed Havana_Lover's point. That being, since both sizes you used in your example were the same size and therefore the same amount of tobacco, they should, theoretically, be the same price. But if the manufacturers think they can squeeze an extra buck out of ya, they will.

[havana_lover]

Originally Posted by discdog

The "blend" will be a little different when you change ring gauge. Obviously there is less tobacco in a lancero than in a torpedo. But the "blend" is typically the same, but because you have more filler, the taste will change.

Also, I think you missed Havana_Lover's point. That being, since both sizes you used in your example were the same size and therefore the same amount of tobacco, they should, theoretically, be the same price. But if the manufacturers think they can squeeze an extra buck out of ya, they will.

thank you..... this was my point, next time I will be a little more direct..

[discdog]

1. I was under the impression that the same tabacco/blend/stuff was used in the same cigar if it was the same "kind" (though not size) of cigar. For example (and lets switch brands), I though if I buy a Rocky Patel Vintage 1990, the same wrapper is used, and the same "stuff" (tobacco? filler?) is used on the inside whether it is a torpedo, toro, robusto, petit corona, churchill, or whatever, so long as it is a "Rocky Patel Vintage 1990." Is that incorrect? Is it not the same "stuff" inside the wrapper?

This is correct of all handmade cigars, you have the filler, the binder and the wrapper. Normally, the wrapper and the binder consist of only one leaf, the filler may be one or a mix of several.

You mentioned "blends", "mix", and "lines", and I want to make sure I know what you're referring to.

2. Is the "blend" the actual tobacco inside the wrapper? Tobacco plus filler? (What is the filler? I didn't think there actually was any filler that isn't tobacco inside of cigars... I thought they were all tobacco?) By "blend", then, are we talking about the ratio of tobacco (or tobaccos) and filler in a cigar? (And I'm thinking blend/mix are interchangeable words? Or not?)

The "blend" is the total cigar, all parts combined. The filler on totally handmade,long filler - ie: premium cigars, is tobacco only filler, some of the cheaper, and most machine made can contain "Other" products.

3. SO, if "blend" means, for example, that a standard Montecristo is composed of "A" (tobacco type 1), "B" (tobacco type 2), and "C" (filler?), does that mean that all Montecristos have the same "blend", but the components A, B, and C, but in different ratios? (Meaning the "ingredients" are the same... but the literal mix is different?)

Now you're getting the picture

3. By "lines", I think you mean, for example, the difference between "RP Vintage 1990" vs. "RP Vintage 1992". Is that what you're talking about? If so, I understand that part... and I expected those to differ in "content" inside the cigar.

I believe the "lines" are each individual product. RP Vintage 1990 is one line, Vintage 92 another, the Edge is another. and so on.

LOL... I've asked a mouthful, and probably some very basic questions. (Which I would have thought I'd know the answers to by now!)

Anyway, if you have the time... please explain what you mean by "blends."

If the "blend" (i.e., the contents of the cigar) are different between the different vitolas (sizes?) of the same "line", then I guess I can easily understand why the prices are different, and why different sizes arguably differ in flavor/quality of the smoke. I was under the impression that it was the same "stuff" and "blend/mix" of stuff in cigars of the same line. (I.e., I thought the Monte DC and Monte #2 were exactly the same, other than size.)


The "blends" within the same line is normally the same, but the quanities of the filler changes as the ring gauges increase, the amount of filler increases.

So, if you can clue me in, great. OR, if you can direct me to some links that explain it... that would also be swell.

Thanks[/QUOTE]

[Bleedingshrimp]

I think what folks are saying, if I'm correct, is that the blend of tobaccos will be intended to be basically the same. Variations come in where proportion of certain tobacco is used. Depending on where on the plant the leaf comes from, some tobacco is more flavorful, while leaves at other intervals on the plant may not be very flavorful but help with the burn of the cigar.

So a particular tobacco thats taste is barely present in a smaller size, could be much more prominent when more is used in a larger size. So slight variations in taste occur between different shapes and sizes. Whether or not these variations are favorable to you as a consumer is up to you. Try different singles or 5 packs of the same blends in different sizes to determine if a flavor profile is worth the extra loot to you.

Think of it in terms of corn dogs, one the size of your arm and one the size of your finger. The amount of corn used will be the same on both...but the dog in the big one is going to have a more prominent flavor for good or for bad....while the corn will have a more prominent flavor in the smaller version because there is less dog to interact with it.

That's probably the worst analogy in cigar history!

[jbock]

Originally Posted by Baric

Decisions like this mean the same blend will be used, keeping the line as the same 'line', but different vitolas mean different quantities and therefore different ways it smokes.

A perfect example of this was my search for the Juan Lopez Epicure No. 1. I located the Epicure No. 2 and was repulsed by it. To me, the difference between the two was night and day. To the best of my knowledge these Nicaraguan puros had the same fillers with the only difference being their size....

Epicure No. 1 = 6x54
Epicure No. 2 = 5x45

Luckily, only five dollars separates these boxes.

Jim

[baglorious]

OK... I think I'm understanding what was getting muddied for me: The wrapper/binder leaf is the same in one cigar line. The filler of the cigar is the same composition in one cigar line. (Whatever mix of tobaccos they use in the filler doesn't vary from cigar to cigar in one line.) That's what I initially thought when I assumed they used the "same tobacco" in the various shapes in a single cigar line. All correct?

The primary compositional difference in shapes, therefore, is the ratio of tobacco between the wrapper/binder in relation to the filler? That varying ratio affects the overall "blend" of the cigar... which is made up from "everything that burns." When you smoke it, you taste the wrapper, filler, and resulting smoke therefrom at the same time, in whatever proportion they are present.

OK... clear on that, and that makes sense.

NOW, further on that: It would seem to me then that the Monte #2 (6.00" x 50) is probably darn near (if not exactly) the same blend as the Monte DC (6.25 x 50). Because the ring guage is the same, it seems the ratio of wrapper/binder to filler would be about the same. I would think the only difference would be the shape of the cap area of the cigar, which, until/if you're smoking the last 1", wouldn't "burn" any differently, and wouldn't affect the "blend" of the cigar.

Anyway, lol... so am I safe to say that, apart from the cap shape (and the resulting difference in draw), there isn't much, if any, difference between the cigars? (Or now do we deal with the fact that they might "pack" the two different cigars in different densities, thereby affecting the ratio of wrapper to filler, and affecting the blend, despite the fact that RG is the same?)

Heh. I think perhaps I should just grab a few singles of each and "test" them! (I am enjoying this dicussion, though!)

[monsoon]

What about labor costs .... my own newbish curiosity, but I would gather that a robusto or churchill would be much easier to press & roll, than a torpedo or ... especially .... a perfecto.

Not that the rollers are paid great sums of moolah ... but if one can get 100 robustos rolled in an hour & only 50 perfectos, then that would have to be adjusted in the cost to the consumers.



Great topic/discussion by the way.

[baglorious]

Originally Posted by havana_lover

thank you..... this was my point, next time I will be a little more direct..

Again, I felt like I was being a bit of a jerk when criticizing your message, so sorry about that. I was a bit annoyed with it at first read because I thought it sorta ignored the purpose of my post, which was to determine whether there were tangible benefits to a consumer, despite that, from my noob perspective, the cigars seemed nearly identical. (i.e., I though you were responding without really reading my post very carefully. Not that that's a mortal sin, lol.) I already knew that, from a marketing/profit standpoint Montecristo would want to charge as much as possible, and I tried to suggest that that was a given.

So... I read your post as saying "the question isn't whether it is valuable for the consumer, but whether it is valuable for Montecristo"... which I thought was the exact opposite of the question I was hoping to have answered.

Now it has been pointed out that your post can also be interpreted to say "Nope. No value to the consumer. Only value for Montecristo." Which is, indeed, a direct answer to the exact point of my post.

SO, what have I learned from all this? DON'T CRITICIZE SOMEONE ELSE'S POST! You're probably going to end up either being a jerk or looking like an idiot. (And sometimes both...)

Anyway, thanks for not getting too with me, Havana_lover.