shilala MHbeads

[Zoomschwortz]

Originally Posted by shilala

Not a clue. There are an unlimited number of treatments that can be added to beads to contol their set point.
I'm from the camp that I don't want anything in my beads because then I can set them at whatever point I want.
If I buy a couple pounds of beads I can use half at 60% or 65% for my wine cooler and the other half at 70% for my humidor.
I can mess around tweaking them for custom RH%ages anywhere in between, too.
But see, I'm an idiot when it comes to that stuff. I like to nib and play and tweak and drive myself insane.
Other guys like to just "set it and forget it" which obviously has it's advantages.
By not adding chemicals or salts to the beads, they remain uniquely versatile. I want to keep that versatility.
In order to deliver a "set point" solution I've created gel bags that are treated with salts. I can set that gel bag in my humidor and being that it's set at 66% it will in turn cause my equilibrium set point to be 66%.
It's an easy way to condition everything.
I've had troubles with bags splitting and I've fixed that.
I've also had troubles with the set-point gels, so I've stopped working with them for the time being so that I can focus on conditioning.
I also needed to take time and make some RHbeadsticks so I can make a few bucks to pay for some more materials.
This game ain't cheap.

Check out your post/RG 833 each.

Way to go Scott.

edit:Well that lasted about a minute

[Scimmia]

Originally Posted by shilala

Not a clue. There are an unlimited number of treatments that can be added to beads to contol their set point.
I'm from the camp that I don't want anything in my beads because then I can set them at whatever point I want.
If I buy a couple pounds of beads I can use half at 60% or 65% for my wine cooler and the other half at 70% for my humidor.
I can mess around tweaking them for custom RH%ages anywhere in between, too.
But see, I'm an idiot when it comes to that stuff. I like to nib and play and tweak and drive myself insane.
Other guys like to just "set it and forget it" which obviously has it's advantages.
By not adding chemicals or salts to the beads, they remain uniquely versatile. I want to keep that versatility.
In order to deliver a "set point" solution I've created gel bags that are treated with salts. I can set that gel bag in my humidor and being that it's set at 66% it will in turn cause my equilibrium set point to be 66%.
It's an easy way to condition everything.
I've had troubles with bags splitting and I've fixed that.
I've also had troubles with the set-point gels, so I've stopped working with them for the time being so that I can focus on conditioning.
I also needed to take time and make some RHbeadsticks so I can make a few bucks to pay for some more materials.
This game ain't cheap.

I do understand the appeal of having complete control by just having the beads act as a buffer so you can condition them to whatever you want, but that's a lot more work than having a set point with a treatment. I have noticed that the recovery time of the RH beads isn't that great (I'm sure it's fine for it's intended purpose, I'm just a little anal sometimes), so I was thinking this could lead to a similar product, but with quicker reaction times. How is the water adsorption capacity on these compared to the regular silica gel that we're used to?

[shilala]

Originally Posted by Scimmia

I do understand the appeal of having complete control by just having the beads act as a buffer so you can condition them to whatever you want, but that's a lot more work than having a set point with a treatment. I have noticed that the recovery time of the RH beads isn't that great (I'm sure it's fine for it's intended purpose, I'm just a little anal sometimes), so I was thinking this could lead to a similar product, but with quicker reaction times. How is the water adsorption capacity on these compared to the regular silica gel that we're used to?

I know what you mean about messing around with them. Some folks don't want that. I do like fussing with them. And being as I'm developing them, I'm going to go with no chemicals in the beads.
I may offer conditioning products that use salts or PG. Dunno yet.
If I do that (I've already made some and already used them) it's as simple as placing your conditioning bag in the humidor.
The bag will adjust the humidity and recondition the beads to the reconditioning bag's setpoint.
A guy could have a "kit" of three bags, 60%, 65% and 75%. Pluse he also has the option to create a custom RH%.
I like the extra versatility.

Another thing about treatments in the beads themselves is that it slows the bead's reaction time. I tested for that. I used PG and five different salts with the beads and in every situation the beads responded more slowly than unconditioned beads of same type.
I even went a step further because I thought maybe pore size would make a difference. So I tried salts and PG with Kitty Litter. It made the KL almost worthless.
Then I tried gel. Gel was nearly unaffected, but it's very slow at reacting in the first place. The salt effected the gel in that it took four times more gel crystals to create a quart of gel when treated with salts than with distilled water alone.
I expected that, but not to that degree.

I think I missed your last question.
When I tested all the medias I needed to create a "scoring system".
Here's the results...
Grade 1 Chips 1.0
Grade 2 Chips 1.3
Size 1 Poly Gel 4.0
Size 2 Poly Gel 3.6
Grade 1 Beads 2.0
Grade 2 Beads 5.0
Grade 3 Beads 6.1
Grade 4 Beads 6.6
Grade 1 MBeads 10.0
So the simple answer is that untreated grade 4 silica gel beads (RHbeads) were 66% as efficient as MHbeads in transferring water vapor.
MHbeads also hold more water than silica gel beads per volume.
I just went digging for that test data and can't find it.
I'll get back to you with that when I do.

[shilala]

Found it. MHbeads will hold approximately 36% of it's own weight in water while Grade 4 Silica Gel Beads will hold around 22%. (at 70 degrees F.)
The difference is really negligable for our purposes.
Our intent is not to use the beads as a resevoir. The items stored inside our humi's and coolers and vinos hold far more water per volume than any the amount of beads we use to control RH%age.
MHbeads may hold a slight advantage as a resevoir in extreme conditions, but it's really still negligable. What it means in the real world is that the RHbeads may dry out a day quicker than MHbeads if I forget and leave them outside the humidor.
Our beads aren't intended to be used as a resevoir, that's why we season our humi's before we put in the beads.
If I wanted an available resevoir of water with hygroscopic properties I'd use polygel soaked with PG and water. That should be my choice if I'm in a very dry climate. RHbeads aren't remotely the best choice in that instance.

[bigben]

Really interesting stuff, excuse my ignorance but what does MH stand for exactly? I too am frustrated by my RH beads longevity it adjusting back to equilibrim!

[cbsmokin]

I've got a headache.

When will this be on an episode of how things work?

[Zoomschwortz]

Last night I got home too late to do add the cigars, but the good news is that the cooler was back down to 65% RH.

I kept the lid open and got the RH down to 62% and this morning it was back to 65%.

Hopefully I will get home from work around 4:00 PM and should be able to add the cigars, go to bed and then get back up around 10:00 PM to go back to work.

At this point, it looks like the beads are locked in at 65%

Have a great day.
Ken

[shilala]

Originally Posted by bigben

Really interesting stuff, excuse my ignorance but what does MH stand for exactly? I too am frustrated by my RH beads longevity it adjusting back to equilibrim!

Molecular Humidity beads.
It goes to how they are made. They are literally created molecule for molecule on a tiny scale. The walls of the tubes are one molecule thin.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by Zoomschwortz

Last night I got home too late to do add the cigars, but the good news is that the cooler was back down to 65% RH.

I kept the lid open and got the RH down to 62% and this morning it was back to 65%.

Hopefully I will get home from work around 4:00 PM and should be able to add the cigars, go to bed and then get back up around 10:00 PM to go back to work.

At this point, it looks like the beads are locked in at 65%

Have a great day.
Ken

I'd be really surprised if it stays at 65% once you put your stuff in unless it's already been sitting in a 65% environment.
In that case it should stay right on the money.
I'm very surprised at how quickly you were able to condition them, too.

[Zoomschwortz]

Originally Posted by shilala

I'd be really surprised if it stays at 65% once you put your stuff in unless it's already been sitting in a 65% environment.
In that case it should stay right on the money.
I'm very surprised at how quickly you were able to condition them, too.

The stuff I have in my Winecooler is at 65% +/- 1% and that is what I'll be putting in the Coolerdor.

I have a cab of RP and a package from Dustin that will be added as soon as they get here. No telling what RH they will be at when they arrive.

As far as me conditioning the beads goes, I can't take any credit. All I did is add a dish of water 2 times, take the dish out 2 times and leave the lid open until the RH went down to 62% 1 time. The results of this was that the RH topped off at 72% 2 times, dropped down to 65% 2 times and came back up to 65% 1 time.

While this sounds great, I still think it is too early to know exactly what we have, but I'll keep testing.

[tchariya]

Now I really want to get my hands on some of these MH beads to play around with myself.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by Zoomschwortz

The stuff I have in my Winecooler is at 65% +/- 1% and that is what I'll be putting in the Coolerdor.

I have a cab of RP and a package from Dustin that will be added as soon as they get here. No telling what RH they will be at when they arrive.

As far as me conditioning the beads goes, I can't take any credit. All I did is add a dish of water 2 times, take the dish out 2 times and leave the lid open until the RH went down to 62% 1 time. The results of this was that the RH topped off at 72% 2 times, dropped down to 65% 2 times and came back up to 65% 1 time.

While this sounds great, I still think it is too early to know exactly what we have, but I'll keep testing.

Huh. That sounds way too easy.
I just made up some 1/2 pound bags and they get hot just sitting there on the table sucking up water from the air.
I sat them on top of my downstairs humidifier to gather whatever vapor they can. The fan will cool them as it hydrates them.
I have a load of RHbeads coming out of the cooler in a few minutes because they're done.
I'll then drop the MHbeadbags in there and set to conditioning them.
I'll be making a bunch more today, too.
I took care to check the MHbag's dry weight so I can calculate their conditioned weight. That way I'll know exactly how much water they hold at 65%. Or at least close.
That will help dramatically toward conditioning them, and it'll let me know "real world" how much water the will hold. So far I just have manufacturer data and data from my tests.
Next batch of RHbeads I'll be careful to weigh them, too. I already did it a couple times but got drawed off and never checked them after they were conditioned. duh.

[Zoomschwortz]

Originally Posted by shilala

Huh. That sounds way too easy..

That is all that I have done.

I believe that you mentioned in a PM that you had already set these at 65% before sending them to me.

[Scimmia]

Originally Posted by shilala

I took care to check the MHbag's dry weight so I can calculate their conditioned weight. That way I'll know exactly how much water they hold at 65%. Or at least close.
That will help dramatically toward conditioning them, and it'll let me know "real world" how much water the will hold. So far I just have manufacturer data and data from my tests.
Next batch of RHbeads I'll be careful to weigh them, too. I already did it a couple times but got drawed off and never checked them after they were conditioned. duh.

Sweet, looking forward to it.

[Zoomschwortz]

I got home from work at 3:30 PM and found that the cooler RH was 64%.

I then emptied my winecooler into the cooler (took about 10 minutes) the RH read 55% when I closed the lid and just checked the RH again after letting it set about 12 minutes and found that the RH was now at 62%.

I'm going to bed now because I have to get up in 6 hours to work 3rd shift

I'll check in the morning when I get home and post what I find.