Cuban cigar sizes

[slowburning]

I am reading "The Compelete Guide for Habanos' Enthusiasts" from JR.

While reading, I came acrossed several brands have multiple vitola with the same exact size. For instance:

Hoyo de Monterrey Le Hoyo Du Roi, 42 x 5.50 (7.5)
Hoyo Corona, 42 x 5.50 (7.3)

Montecristo Petit Tubo, 42 x 5.13 (7.2)
Montecristo No. 4, 42 x 5.13 (7.3)

Partagas Super Partagas, 40 x 5.50 (7.5)
Partagas De Luxe, 40 x 5.50 (?)

Romeo y Julieta Petit Corona, 42 x 5.13 (7.0)
Romeo y Julieta Mille Fleurs, 42 x 5.13 (7.6)

Romeo y Julieta Cedros de Luxe No. 3, 42 x 5.13 (7.6)
Romeo y Julieta Romeo No. 2, 42 x 5.13 (6.5)

H Upmann Monarcas, 47 x 7 (9.0)
H Upmann Sir Winston, 47 x 7 (8.7)

There's more, but I think you see my point. Here's some of my questions:

Are they basically rolled by the same rollers in the factory, just packaged/marketed under different vitola? or they were rolled by different rollers?

Some of the different brands were rolled in the same factory, for instance, Punch (8.9) were rolled in the same factory as the Hoyo de Monterrey (8.3). And they both have same size cigars: Double Coronas: 49 x 7.63. Is there a remote possibility that they are the same cigars, although their flavor/strength may vary? Keep in mind that both brands use tobaccos from the Vuelta Abajo region.

Another thing is, although they are the same size, each received different rating (in parenthesis). I understand the rating/taste is subjective.

Please discuss/share your knowledge/opinion.

[buzkirk]

The whole size, vitola, factory thing confuzes the heck outa me, maybe someone else has a clue!

Do you have any access to the, Encyclopedia of Post Revolutionary Havana Cgars by Min Ron Nee, may have a few answers in there.

I'm still tring to locate a copy for myself, not cheap at $125.00, but alas I can't even find a copy now!

[JAX]

Very interesting observation. Wish I was able to provide some insight to this but I'm afraid I'm in the dark as well. The only thing I can come up with is the names reflect the two versions: Cuban vs NC. Ofcourse I'm just taking a WAG here.

I'll be following this thread....looks like I may learn me sumtin' here.

[andrew_will1]

Originally Posted by buzkirk

The whole size, vitola, factory thing confuzes the heck outa me, maybe someone else has a clue!

Do you have any access to the, Encyclopedia of Post Revolutionary Havana Cgars by Min Ron Nee, may have a few answers in there.

I'm still tring to locate a copy for myself, not cheap at $125.00, but alas I can't even find a copy now!

I found a copy...for a cool $271....used...

http://www.amazon.com/Illustrated-Encyc ... 367&sr=8-2

WTF is in this thing that makes it worth so much??? Are the pages made from premium cuban tobaccos?

[randomhero1090]

I posted a whole reply, and was kicked out, so now I am retyping... I'll try to shorten it up.

1st, you need to know who Habanos SA is....
http://www.habanos.com/vitolario.aspx?lang=en

Habanos SA controls all of the distribution/marketing for Cubatabaco (the Cuban state tobacco monopoly). About 50% of Habanos SA was purchased by Altadis (Spanish/French tobacco giant) in 2000. Altadis influenced a drastic restructuring of the cigar lines and sizes to put Habanos SA more in line with US cigar market. This move is to put Habanos in a position to trade if/when the US trade embargo ends.

Cubatabaco still controls the productions of the cigars… Owns the factories, the torcedores, and of course the tobacco.

Now for some quick definitions…

Vitola – Specific name given by a Brand for a certain size cigar.

Factory Name – The name for a standard size of cigar. Each Brand can have a Vitola, or multiple Vitolas under each Factory Name. But ALL CIGARS under this Factory Name are the SAME SIZE.

Click the link above. Click on Vitolas. Click the drop down and go to Petit Coronas. You will see a whole list of Brands with many Vitolas available in this Factory Size. Click on the RyJ Mille Fleurs. Below the large pic, you will see the details (Factory Name, Length and Ring Gauge). Click on ANY other cigar, they all have the same details.

Since the Cuban Brands can be rolled in multiple factories across Cuba, you need a way to standardize the size. It’s much easier to use a Factory Name for size, versus keeping track of all the Vitolas each Brand offers. Plus, the SAME Vitola could be made in multiple factories.

You could make some assumptions regarding taste. Since the Cuban Brands are manufactured in multiple factories, with rollers rolling for multiple Brands, with Brands using tobacco from the same areas, with multiple Brands using the same standard sizes….. I think you get the idea.

1 thing does escape me. The “presentation.” Again, refer back to the site, Petit Coronas. There are 2 RyJ Mille Fleurs. Only difference is this “presentation” description. My educated guess would be this is a manufacturing code of some sorts. Maybe identifies the factory, type of tobacco, roller, etc etc etc.

Hope this helps!

[randomhero1090]

AH-HA! I saw SLB in one of the codes and recognized that it meant "Slide Lid Box." So figured presentation had to do with how its packed. Looked up Packing Codes and BOOM... Found this great site on Cubans.......

http://www.cubancigarwebsite.com/8-pack ... tory_Codes

So that answers that!

The rest of what I posted looks pretty spot on to what this site has written. They basically call the Vitola the Market Name. But the Factory Name is the same as I posted.

They discuss a Common Name, which is a basically grouping cigars together and giving them a slang type description (like Toro or Robusto).

[slowburning]

Originally Posted by andrew_will1

I found a copy...for a cool $271....used...

http://www.amazon.com/Illustrated-Encyc ... 367&sr=8-2

WTF is in this thing that makes it worth so much??? Are the pages made from premium cuban tobaccos?

It's a book written by a Chinese living in Hong Kong, story has it that he smokes aged Cuban cigars with no less than 10 years of aging. The book is about Post-Revolution Cuban Cigars up until around 2000. It lists all details of each brand including history. For many Cuban cigars smokers, it is like a enclyclopedia about Cuban cigars. A couple of years back, I was offered a copy for $100, new, as in "not used". Being illegal/unable to obtain Cuban cigars, and stupidity of me, I declined.

Now, this book is nowhere to be found, and if you find a copy, it would be super expensive, as in you post, $271.

The good news is, last I heard, a new or revised edition is "in the work," should be out in 2009.


randomhero1090:

Thanks for sharing. I've been digging the internet. My fundamental question remained, "Are they the same cigars, even though they packaged in different presentation, and marketed under a different name?"

[randomhero1090]

Originally Posted by slowburning

randomhero1090:

Thanks for sharing. I've been digging the internet. My fundamental question remained, "Are they the same cigars, even though they packaged in different presentation, and marketed under a different name?"

I know I was a bit long winded, but I wanted to paint the entire picture. I know "thanks for sharing" is a nice way of saying "you didn't answer my question douchebag."

The answer is no. Habanos/Cubatabaco does not make a cigar and put 2 different Brand bands on it. However, reread my assumptions part, you can figure that many of these cigars taste very similar.

Habanos, with some of its restructuring, is trying to diversify and improve the QA portion so they can fully market to the US if that day comes. That means, less factories, more control, MORE variety (special editions, etc).

[HeavyMetal-cr]

Originally Posted by slowburning

While reading, I came acrossed several brands have multiple vitola with the same exact size....

Here's some of my questions:

Are they basically rolled by the same rollers in the factory, just packaged/marketed under different vitola? or they were rolled by different rollers?

Some of the different brands were rolled in the same factory, for instance, Punch (8.9) were rolled in the same factory as the Hoyo de Monterrey (8.3). And they both have same size cigars: Double Coronas: 49 x 7.63. Is there a remote possibility that they are the same cigars, although their flavor/strength may vary? Keep in mind that both brands use tobaccos from the Vuelta Abajo region.

Another thing is, although they are the same size, each received different rating (in parenthesis). I understand the rating/taste is subjective.

Please discuss/share your knowledge/opinion.

Good question. Although I've never smoked or even looked at a picture of a Havana since I'm a law-abiding boy scout who obeys all speed limits and only crosses at the green, I do have non-US friends who have and I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last nite, so here goes...

No, they aren't the same cigar. The blends are/were different. Havanas have different blends just like all the Pepin Nic puro cigars made in his factories are all Nic but don't have the same blends.

The Pinar del Rio region in Cuba, which contains the vaunted Vuelta Abajo, is a rather large area with several plantaions (vegas) growing cigar tobacco and they produce quite a wide range as do those in Nic or the Dominican Republic etc. The tobaccos are sorted by various attributes, including flavors, to produce each of the cuban brands.

With the changes under Altadis including closing the PL factory, building/renovating others and consolidating manufacture, many of the classic brands moved to other facilities or production was spread between factories. As production was moved, the factories reportedly received the blend instructions for that brand, so a particular cigar produced at factory A tastes just like the same produced at factory B - just like a car produced at one factory is indistinguishable from the sam produced at another. Modern manufacturing. Friends tell me that James Suckling did some very good articles on this for CA. Not that I'd actually know or pay attention to such things.

BTW, you might want to email JR as freinds tell me that several of the cigars on your example list have been discontinued. That's another change they say was introduced by Altadis (now Imperial). Cigars within each brand are being eliminated based on sales and overlap. You can probably google to get the list, but so far I'm told that Imperial/Altadis has slashed like 230+ unpopular blends/sizes. And, two on your list - HU Monarca and the Super Party - are supposedly going to cease production at the end of 2009. A close friend sez this is understandable for the Monarca since many argue that it IS the same blend as the SW with the SW just getting better tobacco, but that you can't really tell after 5 years of ageing or so. But he does say it's a shame for the Super Party.

HTH.

[randomhero1090]

Heavy,

Thoughts on this being a move by Altadis to become more "in-line" with the US cigar market?

[slowburning]

Originally Posted by randomhero1090

I know I was a bit long winded, but I wanted to paint the entire picture. I know "thanks for sharing" is a nice way of saying "you didn't answer my question douchebag."

I couldn't say it better myself even if I try. J/K.

Originally Posted by HeavyMetal

No, they aren't the same cigar. The blends are/were different. Havanas have different blends just like all the Pepin Nic puro cigars made in his factories are all Nic but don't have the same blends.

HM, thanks for the info.

Those questions have been in the back of my mind for quiet sometime.

When we look at cigars from Nic, DR, or Honduras, none of them are identical in sizes marketed under the same brand.

If these Cuban cigars were marketed under different brand names, I would not have any doubt, but seeing some duplicate sizes (frontmarks) from the same brand confuse the heck out of me. And I am sure some of those have been discountinued when the guide was published.

[HeavyMetal-cr]

Originally Posted by randomhero1090

Heavy,

Thoughts on this being a move by Altadis to become more "in-line" with the US cigar market?

Speculation and probably bad at that. If you believe as others have written that an estimated 20 - 30% of Havanas have historically been shipped to the US to bad actors like Senators and Congressmen who don't obey the laws like us boy scouts do (shame, shame on them - a scout is trustworthy, honest, loyal...), then Imperial/Altadis is merely following proper marketing by discontinuing unpopular products kept alive by economically ignorant commies (is that repititiously redundant?).

[randomhero1090]

Originally Posted by HeavyMetal

Speculation and probably bad at that. If you believe as others have written that an estimated 20 - 30% of Havanas have historically been shipped to the US to bad actors like Senators and Congressmen who don't obey the laws like us boy scouts do (shame, shame on them - a scout is trustworthy, honest, loyal...), then Imperial/Altadis is merely following proper marketing by discontinuing unpopular products kept alive by economically ignorant commies (is that repititiously redundant?).

Yes, its repetitiously redundant

Being that my educational roots stem from Marketing, discontinuing unpopular product lines is a remedial step that even the most barbaric organizations can follow (wow, where’d all that good English come from?!?!?). To coincide with the American cigar market, the Cuban cigar monopoly needs much more variety in the product lines (variety in tastes, special editions, etc etc). However, what the Cubans have is a superior product that will succeed even with the most hideous marketing strategies. This is a wanted product, plain and simple.

I know several people who live in the US, that travel frequently to Canada for business. Some of these folks purchase Cubans online and have them shipped to the business/hotel they will be visiting. Now, you might ask, why don’t these folks just buy them at cigar shops in Canada? Well 1st, most cigar shops won’t sell to US citizens. And 2nd, there are reports that over 80% of the Cubans sold in Canada are fakes. So these folks are able to obtain Cuban cigars on a frequent basis.

I also know folks who just order them and have them shipped to the US. Ballsy and expensive to say the least.

Not sure what purpose the embargo serves at this point. You are just keeping the country poor. I guess the US Gov’t is afraid the Cubans will start buying WMDs and try to take over the world.

[HeavyMetal-cr]

Originally Posted by randomhero1090

To coincide with the American cigar market, the Cuban cigar monopoly needs much more variety in the product lines (variety in tastes, special editions, etc etc).

Why so? I don't see your reasoning on this unless you expect some massive sustained demand once the embargo ends. Some argue for this but fail to make a case as far as I'm concerned.

Given that Imperial/Altadis is already consolidating the product lines, I would expect them to continue reducing until sales support whatever will be the core line within each brand. I'd also expect that they will then periodically update the product lines and roll out new products like the EL's and Regional Selections as the overall market indicates. In other words, I'd expect Imperial to manage the Havanas just like they manage their NC brands.