CigarLive CrossRoads Part 1 - Final Comments

[koapoorpeople]

Danial, you are doing a great job, and all of your hard work is greatly appreciated. This is a site, along with other forums, that you get out what you put into it. There are a bunch of BOTL & SOTL that are heavy contributors/posters, and it seems that with that participation, you are able to see into a great virtual world that everyone is able to enter without any special anything. Anyone can be one of the "guys", all you have to do is join into the fun.

I don't always post, but I will not miss a day of Cigar Live, it's that I just choose to participate on a different level, it's an addiction that I like! Thanks!

[mikejh-cl]

keep it as it is, no complaints here

[Darren's Godiva]

Here is my two cents.

I have to agree with some of the above comments. Sponsorship is something that is already in place, but I don't think Sponsors should take priority over member. CL can have a 1000 sponsors, but if members are not free to discuss/posts their experiences, likes/dislikes about a cigar or manufacturers, without fear of having their post deleted, otherwise members will be driven away. Without members you have no board.

I enjoy reading posts from sponsors about their cigars -- it is a great way to educate myself on a particular stick/blend/etc. Additionally, I am more likely to buy a stick and try one that is talked about on the board.

There are many events posted that I would not have known about and attended; only to buy the product that is featured. Meeting reps in person that are on the board is great. Your vision, as I remember, was to have a place where people can chat/post about cigars, but actually meet in real life as well.

As you know, when I started on this board I only smoked flavor cigars -- vanilla, chocolate, and the occasional java (you gave me my first java wafer). My tastes have expanded to include Monte's, Don Pepins, Oliva, and much more. Additionally, there is no doubt that this board you created has given me a vehicle to meet new friends that I call family. For that I must thank you.

In regards to time you commit to a project, I commit myself to one rule that I learned a while back: "God First, Family Second, and then career".

I hope this helps. --Mel

[baboruger]

So I thought about what Daniel is asking us last night and this morning on my way to work, and I think that it brings up some great points. While I do think that this is the best message board I have bumped into on the web, and I obviously am here all the time, I think there are some things that should be looked at in order to make this place even better.

I think talking about membership, the # might be large, but the number of regular posters is still sort of low just like every site, so there is still a felling that you are not just a number. I have seen members come and go, and many are still here. It just happens a lot. I think that a ton of the lurkers came because of the ad in Smoke, and that was a good thing, and a bad thing. It attracted some members (I would love to do a pole to see how people heard about CL, me Dogwatch), and it attracted many lurkers. I think it may have opened the flood gates a little too fast, which might have caused some growing pains.

I think by having a large group, there is more potential for scams, but that is each members responsibility to watch for and take care of. I think the down side to a big group is, it’s really hard to keep up with everything that is going on. I used to be able to read new posts all the time and not miss much, but now, I basically can check my subscribed threads and that is it. I don’t know if there is anything to do about this, it is just a change. So as the site grows, the way that we all interact with it grows as well.

One of the biggest changes that I see when I look at how CL has changes in a little over the year I have been a member is there is less and less cigar talk (about things other than reviews and what not) and more of the I bought this, and what not. Now that is not bad, but I enjoyed the threads of the past like “what does Full Bodied mean?” or things like that. Now that being said, there is a lot of this talk in the novice area which is good, but it is not really all information for the novice, and the name might stop some folks from looking in there. All in all I think some more of the cigar science stuff would be cool and things like that.

I guess the question that you are really asking Daniel is, should you limit the membership somehow. I say no, but maybe mark accounts as inactive members after a certain number of months without a post, that way when we look through the member list for something there are just the active people.

Now as to the sponsorship question, I think this is the more controversial of the two. There are two kinds of sponsors here I think, 1 monetary, and 1 active members. I consider the guys who are all B&M owners who post here as sponsors as well because they will talk the site up to their customers and what not. I also think the manufacturers who post, but not pay for a sponsorship are sponsors as well, they add to the site. I think one of the coolest things is posting something about Tatuaje or Illusione and having Pete or Deon answer you personally. That adds something to the site. These guys are sponsoring the site in their own way.

Now as for the paying sponsors, that might be a necessary evil. Do I care, nope, as long as I can speak freely (which I can…Nubs not my cup of tea…see) and as long as the non-paying guys are still represented. I am now speaking of CL only and not GARlive or Nublive, as those have different goals memberships and everything else, and I think they are more associated with the company than with CigarLive (in some ways). Do I think the sponsorships have caused problems? Sure, some here and on other sites have said you sold out or what ever. I say who the heck cares, you should not go bankrupt so I have a place to mindlessly chat about cigars. If they cover some costs great, it is just like a magazine selling ads.

The only thing that I really did not like was when Nub was launched the entire CL board got taken over by Nub avitars and Nub Nub Nub Nub 24/7. That was off putting to many members and I know we lost a couple good ones to that. I think that with things like that the lighter you tread and don’t force it down everyone’s throats the better. I know we are going to come up with something at G.A.R but that will be something that is not in your face like the Nub thing was.

The only thing that I know gets under peoples skin is when they think something is happening and they feel they are not getting the whole story. For some reason they think there are hidden motivations, like with the tasting panel and its association with Cigar.com Why would anyone think this, I think because it was not explained clearly up front. I think with the whole G.A.R controversy a while back, same thing, no one had any idea what is was about and then blam there it was so some were skeptical. I think I can tell everyone 100% that the G.A.R. Live is not a hype marketing tool, but something that I think George Rico is really behind with his Live Life For Today. Will we talk cigars, sure, and George said that he wants it to be an open talk not just about GAR and GH smokes but any. But people get the impression and it sticks, so by being upfront about changes and new things, people might be more accepting.

One of the things I would love to see is more real life HERFS. I think that there are plenty of people who have someone around them, so do it, get together and smoke some cigars!!!

Where should cigarlive head…well I guess where ever it does naturally. You are sort of the sailor of the sail boat, and you can guide it, but sometimes the wind won’t allow you to go where you want, and you might have to go where the wind takes you.

[patefengreen]

Okay, I told myself I wouldn’t post in these “controversial” threads anymore, but I can’t help myself. Just a glutton for punishment, I guess. On the topic of membership: I feel CL is growing at a nice rate. No need to push for everyone and his dog to join, just for the sake of having an inflated membership number. I’m sure you know there are a lot of “no posters” and “low posters” in the membership count, which is fine. A lot of people are looking for information and feel no need to (or feel they have nothing to) contribute or add. That’s totally cool. I know we’re all a bit timid at first. And I’m sure you know that some of the long-time everyday members are no longer around, or post very infrequently. So I think the current growth is at a nice rate bringing a fresh crop of people periodically. And I think the fact that CL is so open to new members and those who may not be that knowledgeable about cigars is part of its niche. It gives us a wide spectrum of members from new/casual smokers to longtime smokers.

As far as sponsorship goes, I’m all for it. Nothing is free and there’s no reason all the expenses of maintaining this site need to be shouldered by Stogie. But just because a manufacturer is a sponsor, I don’t feel they should dictate the structure or content of the site beyond their purchased ad and/or designated sponsor section. I feel CL has fallen down a slippery slope that we can only have happy sunshine thoughts when posting about a cigar who is a sponsor here. When the member base cannot voice their opinion, good or bad, of a cigar or manufacturer; then the original intent of this board is lost. It is then no longer a cigar forum where consumers come to discuss their likes, dislikes and preferences; but it becomes a forum where we can read about how great this month’s sponsor’s products are. And that is just essentially an advertisement. To get that information, I can just go to their actual website. I would like to see more interaction with manufacturers (not necessarily limited only to sponsors). I know this is difficult because they are busy running their business. But if sponsors are buying into CL under the guise that there’s going to be an instant buzz and that their sales are going to increase substantially, then they are doing it for the wrong reason. Sponsorship on a forum like CL (to me) is nothing more than an advertisement. It’s an advertisement for their product, which increases their visibility. For them to truly get a buzz going about their product, they need to invest the time in answering member questions and make posts about new events/products we can see from them. The great thing for them is they can get that for free by simply being an active member and building a rapport with the CL community. In doing that, they can be more “in touch” with what people think about their product. Just being a sponsor doesn’t do that much for me except put their name out there, but being an active member speaks volumes.

The videos are okay. I would prefer if they were more informative instead of just visual. There are a few interviews that are okay too, but again if real life questions were scripted I think I’d get more out of them. Don’t get me wrong, there have been some good pieces where some unique personal information was gained about the manufacturer. But I’d like to see these same manufacturers describing for us step by step the growing process in the fields … or the rolling process, etc… I’ve seen these processes first hand, so I know what I’m looking at when I watch some of the videos. But prior to my trip, I didn’t know what I was seeing except pretty tobacco being rolled into cigars. That’s pretty obvious. But a detailed step by step “tutorial” would be awesome. And then the progression to other manufacturers would be to show what they do differently that sets them apart. As far as a video showing a one-sided story of that particular manufacturer, well of course it does. You’re taking video of their field and their plant. That’s what it’s supposed to be. They gave you access, theirs is the story that gets told. I’m pretty sure we all understand that fact. The videos aren’t a big thing in my opinion. They are nice when you have enough time to devote to downloading and watching them. So I’d call them a “perk” of CL; not a necessity.

The greatest thing about CL is the members. This community is what makes CL so unique. The flavor of the month will come and go and be long forgotten, but the friendships that have been (and will be) made are the real treasure here. The members are the lifeblood. Without them, there’s no need for sponsors or supporting documents because there would be no one to sell the products or tell the stories to. So I’d like to see CL focus more on its core purpose – the members. It’s been discussed before, but maybe now is the time to get serious about organizing a Regional or a National CL Herf including active participation with some of the sponsors who have been with us here on the board. I know some of the members have taken it upon themselves to organize some regional herfs and that is awesome. But to eventually have an official CL sanctioned national herf would be the ultimate achievement.

I’ve met (physically and virtually) many great people which I think of as friends and I owe it to the community that is CigarLive.

[Stogie]

This is some great feedback. I really want this sort of feedback. I am all ears on this.

[Doogie]

Mel, Brent and Rhonda good posts by all. I enjoyed reading your opinions.come on people Daniel says he is all ears. i know there are more opinions than this.

[Wunderdawg]

Ok, as a relative "new guy" here, I too have some observations. First of all, I am a member of 4 or 5 Cigar forums, and there are only 3 that I frequent anymore, this being the main one. One of the things I noticed here is the IMMEDIATE and genuine overall friendliness. One of the larger Cigar magazines has a forum, and they treat noobies with much disdain, and loathing, that I was very timid in posting anything there. I see none of that here. I have never met anybody on this board in person, but I wouldnt hesitate inviting any one of you in my home for a smoke. This doesn't answer your question about where to go from here, but it does speak about what NOT to change.

Sponsership is as always a necessary evil. I agree with the previous post's about sponsers being active members and regular posters on this board. It not only puts their product in the minds of the members, but when you can talk directly to the Mfg., or their rep, it is a win win situation. When you can speak directly to a man like George, and ask him questions about the Mfg. process, the growing process, or whatever, it speaks volumes for their character IMHO. I also enjoy and appreciate the reps on this board like Bigfoot, and Cgargirl, and I know there are others that I can't think of right now, for they give the member, the "common" man if you will, a place to tout, or vent, depending on the situation.

As far as membership goes, It is not uncommon for a board to have many members, and only a few "active" members. I think the natural process of those who become active will prevail, and the cream of the crop will always rise to the top. Again, I will say that the friendliness, and acceptance of the members here will produce more than the average number of "active" members. I know that I feel totally comfortable here, and I havent been here for more than 3 or 4 months yet. The advantage of having a relatively large "active" membership, is that I can come on this board at any time and see something new. I am on another board, much smaller, and just as friendly, but there may be days pass before a new thread is started.

All in all, Daniel, I for one think you have done a wonderful job in not only making this the best possible forum you can, but juggling your family life, travels, and this site. I also know that there are many members here that can, and would be more than willing to help in the daily duties of running a board like this, myself included.

Now for the negatives. I also think that there should be some sort of a minimum post requirement befor any member could sell or trade. I realize that Buyer Beware is a policy that everyone should follow, but the friendliness, and acceptance of the fine people here could be taken advantage of. When I first came on here, I tried to get in on a pif, and although I have done many on other sites, I was turned down, (very respectfully, I might add), untill I had XX amount of posts. This bothered me for about 2 seconds, then I found several members who made me feel like I was a part of this "family", that before I knew it, I had more than enough posts to participate. I guess the "family" aspect is one of this sites best attributes.

The fact that you are even asking for input speaks volumes about the openess and friendliness that I mention so frequently. Just knowing that our input, ideas, and thoughts are first and foremost on your mind, makes me want to participate, and help grow this board even more.

Thanks for listening
Kevin

[Stogie]

Originally Posted by Wunderdawg

The fact that you are even asking for input speaks volumes about the openess and friendliness that I mention so frequently. Just knowing that our input, ideas, and thoughts are first and foremost on your mind, makes me want to participate, and help grow this board even more.

Thanks for listening
Kevin

The reason for this is because I want to go in the right direction for the members. Thank you for the input. All ears...

[tx_tuff]

Sponsers
Like everybody else has said, it is great having sponsers here that post and provide feed back on their cigars or questions from members. I know it is very hard for some of these guys to spend much time at all online in this kind of forum when they stay as busy as they do. I think the Sponsers should some how find a way to spend more time here. They could get their reps to post more, maybe somebody from marketing in their company, or even have a CL Member be a mouth piece for them. After a process of picking somebody (by interviews etc..) they can send that person all info on their cigars along with info on any new products including weekly, bi-weekly, or monthly udates, and a contact number if something needs to be asked. This person can make sure to keep that sponsers section updated and answer any questions. They can be paid with cigars samples etc..
There have also been a couple people saying that we need to be able to say we don't like a cigar by a sponser. Well I don't see that being a problem. I'm sure there has been some stuff deleted about sponsers before. But there is a difference in saying you don't like something and bashing somebody. Just like every member on here the sponsers are members and we will not allow attacks and bashing against them just like we won't allow it for any member. But if you don't like something then feel free to say so, I do.
With the Sponsers there is a couple things I would like to see. First is maybe some deals to the members here. Contest and give aways are cool but only a small few get to enjoy them. Instead have some online specials for CL members, or some get this new cigar fisrt deals for us. That would be great. Also what about a sponser giving cigars for herf. Getting memebers together to herf is like you said one of the main reasons for CL, so if a sponser can help by giving a box of cigars for a herf that would be great. I know that is not something that can be done all the time but every once in awhile would be great.

While I like the reviews and videos I consider them to be a bonus, the real reason I come here is to read posts and to post. The reviews and videos don't keep me coming here, the everyday members do. But don't get me wrong I enjoy them. My fav one was the video in Domino Park in Miami. An idea for more videos is instead of focusing on just the crop/rolling/cigar when you go somewhere, add stuff that everyday reg people do in that country/area that you are at. That kind of video is very entertaining to me.

Where to go from here? patefengreen (Rhonda) said it best "So I’d like to see CL focus more on its core purpose – the members. It’s been discussed before, but maybe now is the time to get serious about organizing a Regional or a National CL Herf including active participation with some of the sponsors who have been with us here on the board. I know some of the members have taken it upon themselves to organize some regional herfs and that is awesome. But to eventually have an official CL sanctioned national herf would be the ultimate achievement."
I know this is something you talked about and want to do someday. I think this is something that will need to be plained out months in advance to get a good number of members to join in. Like at least 6 months, maybe longer.

Daniel your doing a great job, keep it up!

[baboruger]

I'm sort of surprised there are not more responses, let your opinions be heard!

[Pendaboot-cl]

The vitality of a board is in its new members, and this board has done a fine job of making the noobs feel welcome. It also takes money to make the world go round, and this board has done a fine job balancing the struggle for the legal tender and being an open board for all.

Yet when the Nub thing happened, you lost me for a few months. You can't afford the perception that a brand owns the board. Yet you must be attractive to sponsors. A fine line indeed, and I am sure that the Nub thing will not be repeated.

I think that more herfs and things like that will make the board more vital. I also believe that, while new members are necessary, making it too easy to become a part of things can make its own problems. While I dislike the idea of dues, the board should do more things that make money. Maybe organized herfs with sponsorship and take a cut of the proceeds. Maybe more CL merchandise. I dunno, but you shouldn't be afraid to up the ante just a bit. In my experience, what you get for free is valued less than what you pay for. I for one would pay something now, for instance, but I think not if I was asked right at the beginning.

Anyway, it is easier, as Shakespeare wrote, to offer words of advice from cover, than to risk all at the point of attack. Kudos to you, Daniel, for all you have done to make this the best cigar board so fast, out of nothing so recently. But these things are like sharks, so you must keep moving to stay alive. How to get there is not easy to decide, but more posters and more cash is what is needed, while not forgetting those who got you here. You have done so well so far, so I have confidence in the future of this board, as long as you are the one making the decisions.

[Stogie]

Originally Posted by Pendaboot

The vitality of a board is in its new members, and this board has done a fine job of making the noobs feel welcome. It also takes money to make the world go round, and this board has done a fine job balancing the struggle for the legal tender and being an open board for all.

Yet when the Nub thing happened, you lost me for a few months. You can't afford the perception that a brand owns the board. Yet you must be attractive to sponsors. A fine line indeed, and I am sure that the Nub thing will not be repeated.

I think that more herfs and things like that will make the board more vital. I also believe that, while new members are necessary, making it too easy to become a part of things can make its own problems. While I dislike the idea of dues, the board should do more things that make money. Maybe organized herfs with sponsorship and take a cut of the proceeds. Maybe more CL merchandise. I dunno, but you shouldn't be afraid to up the ante just a bit. In my experience, what you get for free is valued less than what you pay for. I for one would pay something now, for instance, but I think not if I was asked right at the beginning.

Anyway, it is easier, as Shakespeare wrote, to offer words of advice from cover, than to risk all at the point of attack. Kudos to you, Daniel, for all you have done to make this the best cigar board so fast, out of nothing so recently. But these things are like sharks, so you must keep moving to stay alive. How to get there is not easy to decide, but more posters and more cash is what is needed, while not forgetting those who got you here. You have done so well so far, so I have confidence in the future of this board, as long as you are the one making the decisions.

A good read indeed. Thanks for the response.

[The EVP]

In the 7 or so months that I've been here, this has been the best forum I've looked into in terms of the friendliness of members, interaction with mods, interaction with manufacturers / sales reps (VERY big plus there), availability of information, no snobbish attitudes toward noobs / flaming, people willing to help someone with a question instead of impolitely telling them to "use the search function", etc.

Personally, I don't have a problem with sponsorships from cigar companies. I'm sure the board takes alot of money and time to run and the more sources of help, the better. But at the same time, I feel that some people might be a bit intimidated to make a negative post about a sponsor's product. As a product rep, I deal with it every single day. I tell the salespeople that what I am looking to hear is what improvements can be made to my product, what their customers DON'T like and what negative things are being said. If my product is not selling, why is it not selling? Is the price too high? Are they being returned frequently and what are the reasons? If a customer chooses my competition over me, what made them make that decision? The only way my product can get better is by knowing what's wrong with it and that's what I rely on them for. But in order to do that, I have to build a relationship with them so that they feel comfortable enough to be able to be honest with me. People need be able to feel comfortable enough to be honest with a manufacturer or one of their reps. The way they are going to acheive that is to be active in the forums.

I know that what I am about to say may step on some toes. It's not personal toward any single person, just what I perceive to be an honest observation. When I first joined the board, there were mods everywhere...they were constantly online, posting, making sure awards were given out in a quick manner, etc. They were very active. In the past month or two, I have seen that level of activity slow down quite a bit. There are times that I've logged on over the course of days and not have seen a Moderator online. Maybe I'm just logging in at the wrong times, but I check in several times throughout the day.

Another thing I agree on is that certain areas of the board such as being able to list something in the "buy / sell / trade" should only be given to members that are active on the board. Let anyone view it or reply to posts, but new threads offering to sell stuff shouldn't be allowed until you've become known on the board (e.g. number of posts, participation in bombs / passes, maintaining a 1.00 average post per day, etc.) It'll definatly help cut down on scams and people that log on Monday and by Tuesday they're putting stuff up for sale. Being friendly is one thing, but I'm not going to trust someone I don't know with my money.

I'd like to see this board become the board that people in the cigar community think of first when it comes to being friendly, having information, being able to freely speak your mind in an honest but professional way (cigars don't "smell like s**t"....they have a pungent odor), have direct access to either the manufacturer themselve or one of the sales reps such as Bigfoot, Cgar Girl, Bulz, Sam, etc... As well as a place where it's just not only online, but members feel comfortable meeting other members and sharing a smoke. I've made several good friends from here.

Just my .02......

[baboruger]

Originally Posted by The EVP

I know that what I am about to say may step on some toes. It's not personal toward any single person, just what I perceive to be an honest observation. When I first joined the board, there were mods everywhere...they were constantly online, posting, making sure awards were given out in a quick manner, etc. They were very active. In the past month or two, I have seen that level of activity slow down quite a bit. There are times that I've logged on over the course of days and not have seen a Moderator online. Maybe I'm just logging in at the wrong times, but I check in several times throughout the day.

I agree with you on that one, I was going to post something about it, but in my long note, I just flat out forgot. I see them on but very few posts, and the awards are going slower, but I bet there is a lot to do behind the curtains. I know you can be invsable as a mod, but I don't think that is the case. It made you feel welcome when the keepers of the keys, so to speak, were having fun with you.

I also miss the interaction with the blind reviews, but I know that is a hassel to get people to do, so I understand when that slowed way down. It's hard to do with a big board like this. I think that getting people envolved with the reviews and things is great! I was talking with someone how the blind review pass is dying a slow death, and that is really sad, it is a great pass, but weeks can go without people responding. I think it is a great way to get going here and meet some great guys and try some nice smokes you have not had before.

I also noticed that the fun wars and bombing groups and smack talk was slowing down (so I started with Deuce this week HAHA) and it was getting sort of boring, lets try as a group to bring all that back!

Not to be a downer I still think this is a really great place