Women and Cigars

[mistabman]

My gf is my favorite person to smoke with. She'll come out with me maybe once every week or two and enjoy a nice flavorful med to med-full stick. Usually we enjoy them while walking around our neighborhood or simply sitting out on our deck.

[Cigary]

I think while the topic in its general form is fine we need to be realistic,,men are men and women are women and the topics of conversation when men are around will get "salty",,,and any woman who smokes with men should understand that men with men will be or tend to get that way. Add a woman to the mix and you have a different dynamic. Is it right to have to change the dynamics when a woman comes in to the mix? I understand that men should be gentlemen and all,,,but men like boys,,,will be men and boys.

When we go to the football games,,and such we still do what we do even with women in the stands and men are just who we are when we get together. When a woman comes in I try to ensure I keep things mild and respect who is in the room. However, you can't tell me that when a woman comes into the mix that you dont change the direction of the conversation? Facts of life and not wanting to add fire to this but let's all be real and honest. When you get to know the women who smoke cigars and everyone gets a feel for each other,,,,then we can be totally honest without hurting feelings. my 2 cents

[TanithT]

Originally Posted by Cigary

Add a woman to the mix and you have a different dynamic. Is it right to have to change the dynamics when a woman comes in to the mix? I understand that men should be gentlemen and all,,,but men like boys,,,will be men and boys.

It really depends on the culture those men and women come from. Some cultures and subcultures have significantly greater dimorphism in their behavioral expectations. When we think of cultures such as the Middle East, we understand that "men and women are different" in terms of their social behavior, and it seems intuitively obvious that in such a culture, social relations between the sexes must be to some extent formal and stilted rather than relaxed and natural.

The dominant culture of modern America is not actually that far off from the Middle East in terms of how different social expectations are of men and women. So when you get men and women together who are from that culture, it can be difficult for either to fully relax and enjoy socializing in mixed gender company.

There are subcultures in America and Europe that very largely lack social dimorphism. Men and women from those cultures are less likely to feel that they are expected to behave differently in one another's company, and feel that they can tell the same jokes, discuss most of the same topics, and be comfortable being "themselves" in one another's company.

I grew up in one of those subcultures, lucky me. So I am not, honestly, much affected by mixed gender company, and I usually find the extremes of both male and female behavior to be a bit strange, especially when they appear to be at odds or in conflict.

The question of "is it fair" to expect a bunch of guys who are relaxing with their stogies to suddenly be on full social alert, curtail their fun and watch their language when a woman wants to smoke with them. No, it's not fair, if they were there first. She can join them - really join them - or not, as she chooses. At that point if one of the guys isn't comfortable with that, then it's more his problem than hers if she's made it clear that she's perfectly okay with the guys just relaxing and being guys.

When we go to the football games,,and such we still do what we do even with women in the stands and men are just who we are when we get together. When a woman comes in I try to ensure I keep things mild and respect who is in the room. However, you can't tell me that when a woman comes into the mix that you dont change the direction of the conversation? Facts of life and not wanting to add fire to this but let's all be real and honest.

I can't, obviously, speak for every woman in the world, or even every woman from my own subculture. But the only disrespect that would concern me would be sexual hatred and contempt, actual hate speech (racist, homophobic, etc), or speaking of either men or women as objects to be used and taken advantage of. I don't like hearing that about men from women either.

I don't care if people swear or fart or tell sexually explicit jokes. The respect I want shown is *toward everyone*, basically, so the conversation doesn't devolve to "let's bash these people because we're so much better than them." This doesn't mean you can't be clear that your ex-wife or ex-husband was a scumbag, just that it's not fair to say "All men are scum" or "All women are b*tches." To me that crosses the line to hate speech, and it condemns people who mostly aren't guilty.

When you get to know the women who smoke cigars and everyone gets a feel for each other,,,,then we can be totally honest without hurting feelings. my 2 cents

That would be the ideal goal.

[Acesfull]

This thread is very interesting... I guess because I'm the type of person and I will be who I am no matter what or who is around I dont find women any different than men. I even "guy out" in front of my gf and she accepts it. It doesn't mean I love her any less, its just means I am me and she accepts that.

[2Curious]

Originally Posted by TanithT

The question of "is it fair" to expect a bunch of guys who are relaxing with their stogies to suddenly be on full social alert, curtail their fun and watch their language when a woman wants to smoke with them. No, it's not fair, if they were there first. She can join them - really join them - or not, as she chooses. At that point if one of the guys isn't comfortable with that, then it's more his problem than hers if she's made it clear that she's perfectly okay with the guys just relaxing and being guys.

I've thought about this for a few weeks now. How my mere presence hanging at the local B&M affects the group as a whole. The honest truth is, it changes. It's not a good or bad thing, it just "is". It's reality. Most men of a certain age were raised to respect women, so they automatically go into a "mode" when we appear. If I had a nickel for every time a man said "excuse my language" after swearing, forgetting I was there, I would be a billionaire! Since I'm ex-military, I can tell you first hand that the foulest mouthed being on the planet, is not a male truck driver...it is a female drill sergeant. Foul foul creatures, trust me.

Sometimes I try to move around when I'm hanging for a long night at the shop, between the inside seating and the outside seating... to allow men some time on their own, knowing some of them cannot fully relax if I am around. But, I have noticed that the more we all become closer friends, all this becomes moot.

Also, I'm not sure I would know exactly how to convey/announce to the guys that "I'm perfectly ok with them being guys". How does one announce that, and at what point, 2nd meeting, 3rd meeting, upon first handshake and introduction of names? It's just awkward.

Easy Example:
I know that any of us that swear occasionally, or frequently for that matter, if we were around our parents, would go into an automatic "parent" mode, without even a conscious thought that we were doing so. It's the same thing with some men when they are in the presence of women, they go in the "mode". It just is. The comment that naturally would spill out about the woman who just walked by, is edited.

In the end, as women, this is something we cannot change. All we can do is try to be attune to it, understanding and realistic.

[slyder]

Originally Posted by 2Curious

Since I'm ex-military, I can tell you first hand that the foulest mouthed being on the planet, is not a male truck driver...it is a female drill sergeant. Foul foul creatures, trust me.

LOL how true. When i was in USAF basic in San Antonio we had a couple female drill instructors. They were meaner than the men! I got yelled at my fair share while there but when those women would bark at me Id swear I was on the edge of crying. This one we had was super mean. Her husband ran the Confidence Course and looked like Sgt Slaughter and so did she for that matter!! She was a 200lb monster. She had a chest...not breasts....a chest! I swear she had a beard too. I wanna say her and her husband were both ex Para Rescue or something. Real tuff customers.

[Acesfull]

Originally Posted by slyder

I wanna say her and her husband were both ex Para Rescue or something. Real tuff customers.

Not to threadjack but my drill instructor at AF basic told me the same thing... odly enough he didnt wear his badge.. just his medic badge.. You figure if you were a PJ you would be proud enough to wear the badge.. I think thats just a story they tell all the trainees to make them think they are BA

[slyder]

Yeah cause once you earn it you wear it no matter what field you go into. Like weapons systems Missle Badge. We wear it even if we start slingin chow at the mess hall. I actually was stationed with a guy that almost made it through PJ training. He got hypothermia in his last couple weeks while diving with no wet suit. So they booted him back to weapons school. He was not happy.

[Cigary]

After reading more of this thread there is no doubt in my mind at all that I would love to herf with Tanith and Kerri and feel totally at ease. The way both of these women are able to express themselves freely and confidently with wisdom is something I admire greatly. Thanks for your posts on here.

[tx_tuff]

I don't care if me and the boys are smoking at the B&M, local bar, ice house etc... If a woman wants to join us that is fine with me. It doesn't matter to me if its a man or a woman its all about what kind of person they are, if they are good people like everybody I have meet here then its smoke on

[TanithT]

Originally Posted by Cigary

After reading more of this thread there is no doubt in my mind at all that I would love to herf with Tanith and Kerri and feel totally at ease. The way both of these women are able to express themselves freely and confidently with wisdom is something I admire greatly. Thanks for your posts on here.

Thank you! Would definitely love to herf with some of the great BOTL's and SOTL's I've met here.

[2Curious]

Originally Posted by TanithT

Thank you! Would definitely love to herf with some of the great BOTL's and SOTL's I've met here.

Puff Web Herf

Come join us tomorrow, Tanith!

[TanithT]

That would have been fun, but I was getting ready for the Palmetto State Herf Crew's big Lake Greenwood herf that weekend. It was awesome by the way. Thanks for the invite though!

[buckwylde]

I smoke with my girlfriend more than anyone else. She went from hating my cigar smoking (especially when she was quitting cigarettes) to waiting till I get home and inviting me to the porch for a smoke. It is really nice to share one of my favorite hobbies with her. Those who smoke together...stay together. ;-)