Cigar and Wine Vintages

[RobustBrad]

Hell all,

First topic on my end since joining. I apologize if this has been talked about already, I did a search and could not find anything related.

Let me preface this by saying these are all assumptions on my part, I'm certainly no expert on the subject matter.

We all know how wines have a certain vintage associated with them and those vintages can totally change a wines characteristics from year to year. The most notable example of this is how you can't get your hands on an 00 or an 05 Bordeaux but anything in between those years are extremely plentiful.

Grape vintages are effected by wind, rain fall, sun, temperature and I'm sure many other X factors. Tobacco I'm assuming is effected by the above but at a far lesser degree.

So the question is why are cigars not produced or relied heavily on there vintage?

[jadeg001]

They kind of are when you are looking at CCs. Some years are known to be very bad, and therefore you can get them for pretty cheap. On the other hand its harder to find well aged CCs especially from very good years, or if you can find them they are pretty pricey.

I think that there is also different terminology. Wines generally use "vintage" while with cigars they simply use "aged" alot of NCs have aged tobacco.

Wines and cigars are simular with age, as they both get better with age (typically more so with CCs more than NCs), however, there is generally a time period when they begin to deteriorate with age.

Hope this helped a bit.

[Cypress]

Stogie, tx_tuff, and I talked about his on Sunday. I'll PM Stogie and maybe he can elaborate on his ideas.

[Herf N Turf]

I think we all do this to some extent. However, it's not as well advertised and universally accepted as with wine. There are certain cigar vintages that are better than others and there are those cigars which benefit tremendously with age. However, by no means do all cigars benefit from age and the aging cycle is typically much shorter. I can see the guy who smoked a 90yr old cuban and loved it, leaning into the screen and warming up his fingers for a rebuttal, but the fact is, cigars peak a lot sooner than wines. Even the best tobaccos are going to lose their "edge" after about 7yrs. A good Cabernet isn't even teething yet.

Unquestionably, tobacco is every bit as sensitive to environmental issues as are grapes. An example is cuba went through a terrible mold blight and followed it up with a hurricane. The result was the near dscimation of tobacco fields. In despiration, they rolled a lot of very questionable cigars with tobaccos of very questionable origins.

Another issue is that you simply dont drink 4-6 bottles of "00 bordeaux a day. At least not for long. As a result, very few cigars hang around long enough to attain vintage status.

[Stogie]

Originally Posted by RobustBrad

So the question is why are cigars not produced or relied heavily on there vintage?

Hey thanks to Cypress for sending me a PM about this topic. We were talking about this over the weekend. One of the things I have always believed was that cigars should be watched closer by vintage. I myself have had two boxes of cigars that tasted different because they were from two different years but none of the manufacturers that I know of are giving out info about the cigars in each box in detail. I had an idea a couple years back on what to do about this but there was little interest among the manufacturers that I spoke with.

I look forward to following this thread.

[madurolover]

This is my thoughts on this and i may be completely off target here so...

With wine, the makers use the same grapes, from the same region and make it the same way every time. If you have a year where the grapes are subpar then you will get a subpar wine. the wine really can't be tweaked to produce the same taste as previous vintages.

With cigars, the tobaccos can be tweaked (a little more or a little less Ligero, etc.) to make a fairly consistent product.

I am no wine person but I don't think that wine is "blended" to produce a certain flavor. I think they depend pretty much exclusively on the grapes and aging to produce the taste. Of course other things also come into play but I think it may be minimal. Cigars on the other hand depend completely on the blend. Of course you still need quality tobacco but a good blender can still produce a quality product with tobacco that may be slightly less quality tahn prior years.

I could be, and probably am wrong about this but it is my thinking. I am interested in hearing others thoughts about this subject.

[Tarks]

Originally Posted by madurolover

This is my thoughts on this and i may be completely off target here so...

With wine, the makers use the same grapes, from the same region and make it the same way every time. If you have a year where the grapes are subpar then you will get a subpar wine. the wine really can't be tweaked to produce the same taste as previous vintages.

With cigars, the tobaccos can be tweaked (a little more or a little less Ligero, etc.) to make a fairly consistent product.

I am no wine person but I don't think that wine is "blended" to produce a certain flavor. I think they depend pretty much exclusively on the grapes and aging to produce the taste. Of course other things also come into play but I think it may be minimal. Cigars on the other hand depend completely on the blend. Of course you still need quality tobacco but a good blender can still produce a quality product with tobacco that may be slightly less quality tahn prior years.

I could be, and probably am wrong about this but it is my thinking. I am interested in hearing others thoughts about this subject.

You took the words right out of my mouth! I'll add one more point. Not all wines are bottled for aging. Most wines have preservatives that will not allow for long term aging. Sounds weird but is true. You will find that only the premium wines will last and get better for long term aging.

[RobustBrad]

Great replies guys, thanks! So a quick question then. If I were to track the vintages of my cigars, how would I go about that?

Is there some sort of serial number database that tracks what vintage / crop that particular box was produced out of?

Thanks again,
Brad

[madurolover]

Originally Posted by RobustBrad

Great replies guys, thanks! So a quick question then. If I were to track the vintages of my cigars, how would I go about that?

Is there some sort of serial number database that tracks what vintage / crop that particular box was produced out of?

Thanks again,
Brad

Only a couple of non-Cubans will have a box code.

[Snake Hips]

Originally Posted by Herf N Turf

I think we all do this to some extent. However, it's not as well advertised and universally accepted as with wine. There are certain cigar vintages that are better than others and there are those cigars which benefit tremendously with age. However, by no means do all cigars benefit from age and the aging cycle is typically much shorter. I can see the guy who smoked a 90yr old cuban and loved it, leaning into the screen and warming up his fingers for a rebuttal, but the fact is, cigars peak a lot sooner than wines. Even the best tobaccos are going to lose their "edge" after about 7yrs. A good Cabernet isn't even teething yet.

I disagree. There are many 30-40-year-old Habanos with plenty of legs left for aging. Many vitolas are given a recommendation of 20 years of aging, with 5 years as a minimum.

But I do agree about the advertisement of vintages. The only place where vintages are really talked about is in Cuban cigars, and it's not as established as in the wine world. Many feel that 2004 was a very poor year for Habanos while 2003 was a fantastic year, but you'll be hard-pressed to find cigars of either vintage sitting around.

@RobustBrad
Habanos have a date on the bottom of the boxes indicating the month and year the cigars were boxed, and a 3-digit code signifying the factory they were rolled at.

[JCK]

If you get chance, read the Maturation in Min Ron Nee's - Illustrated Encyclopedia of Post-Revolution Havana Cigars. Not that he's the end all say all to all things Habano, but his experience tied to the experience of decades long habanos smokers and collectors hypothesize that the tobacco in Habanos go through 3 maturation periods after being rolled. Some cigars may take 30 years if not longer before they reach the 3rd maturation process, while other may expire and become dull long before then. This theory is based on the strength and other intrinsic qualities of the tobacco used in the blend.

[JCK]

Litto Gomez uses the following stamp to identify the month his cigars were boxed for La Flor Dominicana.

If you look on the bottom of a Litto Gomez Box you'll see something like the following enclosed in a circle.

SL
--
SI

The translation is as follows

R E P U B L I C A S
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0

so that the example above is:

06
--
07

cigars packaged June 2007.

[RobustBrad]

Originally Posted by JCK

If you get chance, read the Maturation in Min Ron Nee's - Illustrated Encyclopedia of Post-Revolution Havana Cigars. Not that he's the end all say all to all things Habano, but his experience tied to the experience of decades long habanos smokers and collectors hypothesize that the tobacco in Habanos go through 3 maturation periods after being rolled. Some cigars may take 30 years if not longer before they reach the 3rd maturation process, while other may expire and become dull long before then. This theory is based on the strength and other intrinsic qualities of the tobacco used in the blend.

I have that book! I absolutely love it. Not sure if anyone has done a book review on. If not, I'll post one this afternoon.

Cheers,
Brad

[RobustBrad]

To follow up with the gentlemen that said you'll only find vintages on certain habanos boxes.

Do you think the cigar industry just does not want to make it a standard? Premium wines makers can make a ton of cash on one vintage and little on the next. I'm wondering if the cigar industry knows that and does not want that kind of fluctuation.

Cheers,
Brad

[madurolover]

Originally Posted by RobustBrad

To follow up with the gentlemen that said you'll only find vintages on certain habanos boxes.

Do you think the cigar industry just does not want to make it a standard? Premium wines makers can make a ton of cash on one vintage and little on the next. I'm wondering if the cigar industry knows that and does not want that kind of fluctuation.

Cheers,
Brad

Not really sure what you mean here. ALL boxes of Habanos have a date stamped on them.