Faster then the freezer

[Demented]

Thankfully, I've yet had to deal with tobacco beetle's.

Having read a number of post regarding them had me wondering if there might not be a faster way of dealing with the problem when it comes up.

There's quite a bit of information on the use of dry ice for the control and eradication of these pest in furniture, books and grain, why not cigars?

Dry Ice at a temperature of -109.3°F or -78.5°C. changes directly from a solid to a gas in normal atmospheric conditions without going through a wet liquid stage.

18 hours in a closed vessel containing dry ice will freeze and suffocate both the adult beetles and their larvae. I can’t find any information indicating whether or not extreme cold and lack of oxygen will also kill eggs.

As a general rule, Dry Ice will sublimate at a rate of five to ten pounds every 24 hours in a typical ice chest. This sublimation continues from the time of purchase, when picking dry Ice bring an ice chest.

Would this be practical

Dmntd

[Twill413]

I have heard that someone actually did this in their coolerdor with some success. I can't recall who it was, but this sounds like it can be especially useful if an actual outbreak occurs. I think that the lack of O2 would kill those things relatively quickly. As long as their is a good seal, sounds practical. It might be necessary to do something to package the gars to prevent freezer burn maybe? -79ish degrees is damn cold.

[Rploaded]

I have also considered this as an alternative.

My reasons for concern are the following:

Very rapid cooling can make the wrapper brittle in turn causing cracking do to the rapid swelling of the filler.

I am sure the CO2 would kill larva and adults but eggs I think would get wacked by the extreme cold.

Thoughts???

[JCK]

How will sublimation affect the moisture in the cigars?

[RPB67]

Sounds like you will have cigar popsicles if you are not careful.

Dry ice would be more of a rapid freeze versus a regular freezer. I wonder if it would be safe or maybe to much for the cigars all at once ?

[NCRadioMan]

This was posted by Seangar about this subject(http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showpos...3&postcount=24)
:

"Lower temperatures result in less cellular damage and I would expect less lethality. We preserve bacteria and cells at -100C and lower. The lower the better as viability (when thawed) is preserved much longer. Thus it makes no sense to talk about super low freezing temperatures and dry ice (although I like the idea of suffocating the bastages that are alive in there) as a better way of freeze-killing than a household freezer at -8 to -10C.

Lower temperatures and faster freezing results in smaller ice crystals and less ice crystal growth. This results in LESS physical disruptive effects on the organisms. I would anticipate that the best lethality would be between -4 and -5 C based on a number of factors.

You see people going into suspended animation tanks at extrememly low temperatures. We also know from frostbite research that "tissue injury is greatest when cooling is slow, cold exposure is prolonged, rate of rewarming is slow, and, especially, when tissue is partially thawed and refreezes.". Frostbite also includes anoxia so its not just producing damage by ice formation.

In any case, my argument is that a home freezer is ideal for killing the beetles, their larva and eggs. Two cycles of freeze thaw are better than one .. but I have not experimented with that. Slow freezing and thawing is clearly best, not only for lethality but also for maintenance of wrapper integrity.

An additional factor is that very low temperatures might result in the wrapper leaf reaching the glass transition temperature, where they would become much more friable and much more easily damaged."

Also:

"The IFAS/University of Florida publication on cigar beetles suggests that really low temperatures are not needed to kill beetles"

http://creatures.ifas.ufl.edu/urban/...tte_beetle.htm

[Demented]

Originally Posted by Twill413

It might be necessary to do something to package the gars to prevent freezer burn maybe?

I don't know that freezer burn would be a problem. Bagging the cigars/boxes would prevent the added effects (whatever those may be) of replacing O2 with CO2.

Originally Posted by Rploaded

Very rapid cooling can make the wrapper brittle in turn causing cracking do to the rapid swelling of the filler. Thoughts?

The rapid cooling might be a problem, I don’t know how fast the temperature would actually drop.

A couple pounds of dry ice, stuck it in an ice chest and monitor using a probe type thermometer, would be the best way figure out how fast the temperature drops and if pre-cooling is needed.

Might be a test worthy of dog rockets!

Dmntd

[audio1der]

All good points.
I know M&M foods is big on flash-freezing their product as it produces less ice crystal growth and hence less cellular damage as stated in seangar's quote, so there must be soe valildity to that.
I'd be more concerned about the timeline of the freezing/thawing and it's effect on the wrappers.
Keep us informed if you do go ahead and complete the experiment!

[Demented]

NCRadioMan Thanks, Great info!

I do not know myself, and I can't find enough information, thats why I'm asking.

I have read of this method being used to combat beetle infestation in antique furniture and books with great success, without re-infestation after treatment.

I’ll try to find the web pages again.

Thank's again,

Dmntd

[Twill413]

I know a 100% effective way to ensure that a stick doesn't get infected. Smoke it, as soon as possible...has worked for me with a 0% infestation rate on the test cigars.

[y3n0]

"The IFAS/University of Florida publication on cigar beetles suggests that really low temperatures are not needed to kill beetles"

http://creatures.ifas.ufl.edu/urban/...tte_beetle.htm

Within that article, this was mentioned: "Heating small quantities of infested material in an oven (190ºF for one hour, 120ºF for 16 to 24 hours) also is effective."

Talk about toasty cigars!

[Demented]

Originally Posted by audio1der

flash-freezing produces less ice crystal growth, less cellular...

I'd be more concerned about the timeline of the freezing/thawing and it's effect on the wrappers.

If there's less ice growth, wouldn't one expect less swelling and less damage to the wrappers?

Originally Posted by audio1der

Keep us informed if you do go ahead and complete the experiment!

Dry ice I can get, Ice chest I have, dog rockets I'm lacking!

Dmntd

[Demented]

Originally Posted by Twill413

I know a 100% effective way to ensure that a stick doesn't get infected. Smoke it, as soon as possible... has worked for me with a 0% infestation rate on the test cigars.

LOL, I'll drink... ahhh... Smoke to that!

Fire'em up boys and girls!

Dmntd

[Rploaded]

Originally Posted by Demented

If there's less ice growth, wouldn't one expect less swelling and less damage to the wrappers?

Water is water, if it freezes it expands. I think the faster things freeze the less cell damage there is, but the water content regardless will freeze.

[mikestod]

I have a gallon sized ziplock bag full of Thompsons someone can have if they want to experiment!