2nds aren't all there cracked up to be.

[txmatt]

Originally Posted by Dgar

I dont buy a lot of seconds but a year ago I picked up a few "3 X 3 in aluminum tubes", threw them in the humi for a year, smoked one the other day watching a little March Madness, and it was good... have no Idea who makes them.... I call em' 9's...

3x3's (and 4x4's), like Private Stock are cigars made by Davidoff with tobacco not quite pretty enough for their flagship brands. The tobacco alone might be called a "second" however the rolled cigars are first quality - like Fuente, Davidoff does not sell any seconds/rejects.

A second is a cigar that has been rejected due to flaws; draw problems on a test machine, visable flat spots or voids, low weight, poor cap, sometimes simply discoloration.

Some distributors are now selling "2nds" that really aren't. The cigars are made from lower grade tobacco rolled by inexperienced rollers; the factory then gets away with avoiding QC check since they are sold as seconds. A cigar factory can not stay in business by wasting high grade tobacco destined for $8 cigars by generating hundreds of thousands of "2nds" with it. This is particularly important when using a finite supply of "7 year old vintage tobacco". You fire or demote rollers that make seconds with the expensive leaf, and you reject the ugly tobacco before sending it to the talented rollers. Let me stop beating around the bush and just say on RP.

Just as I have a very hard time believing Rocky Patel is still using 1990 and 1992 vintage tobacco, I can't believe his factory produces as many seconds as he is selling. Famous and Cigars International are selling far too many of these cigars. It is a marketing gimmick. A better gimmick IMHO mind you than the latest weapon, jar, or chest that Gurkha uses to distribute their cigars; still a gimmick. I don't believe many/any of the cigars sold as seconds to his boxed cigars were ever destined to wear the band. I do believe the blend is the same, so if you are happy with the cigar for the money the gimmicks don't really matter. I do enjoy several of Patel's cigars but his marketing has become annoying to me.

Connies and Old Fashioned are true seconds, and you often have to pitch 20% of the sticks in a bundle because they are unsmokable. Huge voids are frequent in the ones you can smoke. Weighing cigars is a quick way of pulling out the rejects for the huge factories such as Altadis and General Cigars. The low weight cigars get packaged as Connies.

I have found enough great tasting, defect free, first quality cigars available at the same price as seconds that it just doesn't seem worthwhile to mess with them.

[Dgar]

^ Great post

Thanks for the information on the 3x3's (9's)..... Interesting stuff to remeber when I'm at the B/M looking to pick up a few inexpensive smokes.

Quote
"I can't believe his factory produces as many seconds as he is selling."

I cant believe he's producing that many seconds and staying in business, unless......... It's part of the business plan....

[papajohn67]

Some of you guys are just to darn fussy. 2nds, heck sometime give the 3rds a try. I'd be willing to part with the whole box of these or even consider breaking it up into samplers....cheap!!

[cre8v1]

Originally Posted by papajohn67

Some of you guys are just to darn fussy. 2nds, heck sometime give the 3rds a try. I'd be willing to part with the whole box of these or even consider breaking it up into samplers....cheap!!

There's a lot of smokin' left on those things!!

[The Bruce]

I've had good luck with seconds, although I admit the "real" thing is much better. But I'll tell ya, you can't go wrong with Cremosa Seconds. YUM!

--
Erik

[craigchilds]

Originally Posted by txmatt

A cigar factory can not stay in business by wasting high grade tobacco destined for $8 cigars by generating hundreds of thousands of "2nds" with it. This is particularly important when using a finite supply of "7 year old vintage tobacco".

Unless, of course, a lot of $8 cigars are really not that much different than the $2 cigars, except for the fancy boxes and marketing campaigns. Personally, I think 90% of the time, a tobacco leaf is just a tobacco leaf. There's way too much hoopla about 7- or 9- or 12-year old leaves floating around in the trade advertisements these days.

I'm not saying all cigars are the same. A Padron 1926 has higher quality leaves than a Don Kiki Green Label -- and it's rolled by more experienced employees, so you're much likelier to get a consistent, quality smoke. But I'm not sold on the idea that an RP Vintage is that much better leaf than RP Fire.

Some people call me a fool, but I'd bet that the JR Alternatives to HdM Excaliburs are the exact same cigar as the "real thing". To me, they taste the same. Plus, it is a known fact that JR Ultimates are made in the same factory, and my theory is that they produce a certain number of cigars of the same blend. If they can sell $2M at the premium price with the premium label, then so be it. They sell another $2M to JR to sell under the alternatives label. According to JR website, this is how Lew sold Punch "Alternatives" and Royal Jamaica "Alternatives" for years.

Now, do I think the JR Alternatives to Fuente - or the TNT knock offs of Padron -- are the real thing? No, but I think it happens more often than a lot of people want to admit - especially with the big conglomerate companies, like General Cigar.

The cigar biz is a lot like the perfume industry. Advertising sells, and the final go-to-market price has a lot to do with how the product is "perceived", regardless of any actual tangible measurable value.

Just my opinion... of course.

[bigALemos]

well i haven't tried any seconds, but they arent' called 2nd's for nothing, there's something that makes em not as good as the real deal

[floydpink]

This has been a great thread and and I have a feeling there is a lot of truth on both sides. I think the bottom line is that if it tastes good, you are smoking a good cigar.

I can't imagine how RP is producing so many seconds myself unless he has some rollers who are drunk when they come to work. In any event, my second bundle of the month is arriving tommorow.

[wharfrathoss]

i'm a big fan of the old fashioneds in double & single digits (partagas, punch/hoyo)-have found maybe 2 plugged in 6 bndls, not a bad ratio-el creditos are not LGC Serie R 2nds, they are rolled in the same factory as LGC, but am not sure if the same blend as the regulars-as for the rest, or the concept of 2nds in general, who knows for sure?-smoke what ya like & like what ya smoke-personally i get off on a good $1 cigar

[Puro_Angler]

I've only tried the el credito 2nds and Super premium 2nds (hoyo and punch maduro rothschild 2nds from Villazon factory). The Super premiums are pretty good and I'll occasionally find one at the bottom of the humi which is a real treat after 3 years. El creditos were flat, but made good offerings to non-experienced smokers. My old neighbor seemed to like those.

[Iceman]

I have had lots of RP Vintage 2nds and have never had a bad one. They are 2nds for cosmetic reasons. One of the reasons they sometimes dont taste quite the same as their "Banded Brothers" is because they have not aged the 10 or 12 years that the 92's and 90's have. If you expect the 2nds to be identical to the "Banded Brothers" then you should expect to pay the same. Since you dont pay the same, just relax and enjoy it. If you get a bad one once in a while too bad...

Just my

[Greenwit]

Originally Posted by Iceman

I have had lots of RP Vintage 2nds and have never had a bad one. They are 2nds for cosmetic reasons. One of the reasons they sometimes dont taste quite the same as their "Banded Brothers" is because they have not aged the 10 or 12 years that the 92's and 90's have. If you expect the 2nds to be identical to the "Banded Brothers" then you should expect to pay the same. Since you dont pay the same, just relax and enjoy it. If you get a bad one once in a while too bad...

Just my

Yippers.....I've had plenty of the 90s and 92s and the taste is consistent and the cigar quality is exceptional. These babies are constructed well and burn well.

[SgtStriker]

Originally Posted by carni

2nds are a great deal, occasionally a good smoke, but unfortunatley they are still 2nds. I would use them for pass-er-outers when friends come over who don't know the difference between corillo and corojo...idiots

I couldn't agree more. That's why I have them. AF curly Heads are for friends that only smoke cigars when they see you with one.