Extra credit for flag burning ?

[Skinsfan]

I believe that burning the flag or the constitution is abusing your rights as an American!

Love it - Protect it or LEAVE!

[borndead1]

The flag and the Constitution are only pieces of cloth and paper UNLESS we actually practice what we preach regarding these symbols. If I were to burn a copy of the Constitution in order to protest a smoking ban or even the Patriot Act, would that be acceptable or unacceptable? I can think of several things our government has done that are worse than burning the Constitution.


I find burning the flag distasteful but instead of giving someone attention when they did it I would probably just ignore them. Flag burners = shit stirrers.

[The Professor]

Originally Posted by icehog3

Any chance this professor really just wanted to spark a passionate discussion, and really had no intent to instigate anyone to desecrate the flag?

Originally Posted by Bigwaved

IMO, the strength of our country and what holds it together is the belief that we would never give up on what makes it strong, our rights. Those rights are double edged though. Sometimes it allows people who have them to do things others may not approve of even though they are within the law. Like it or not. To sacrifice that, is discarding the Constitution. Since I am not that professor, I cannot read his mind, but I believe that was his point.

Since I am a professor (at least, I play one on TV), I'll be happy to attempt to read his mind....

Indeed. I will regularly say things in the *context* of a particular class discussion that are designed to get students to engage problems differently and to think independently and critically about prior held beliefs. That's what education is about, isn't it? Many universities (including all I have attended and taught at) were founded not as vocational institutions, but as institutions designed to prepare critical citizens.

Students like Ms. McDade who don't listen closely, have knee-jerk reactions, won't open themselves to learn different perspectives, and fit things they don't understand into a convenient and paranoid fantasy about "liberal professors" and "students' rights" just infuriate me....

BTW, teaching a free speech class would be fun. I think I'd probably have an entire unit on "FU*K" (but I'd spell out the whole word)

Originally Posted by Ratters

I believe everyone has the freedom to burn the flag.

I also believe that they also have the freedom to get their ass kicked for doing so.

Sure ... but the one doing the ass-kicking has to face the consequence of a fine and some jail-time -- assault and battery isn't "protected speech" as far as I know; but IANACL (I am not a constitutional lawyer).

Originally Posted by tzaddi

A similar action would be to "peacefully" deface and burn copies of the professors credentials, like the ones that are framed and hanging on the walls of his office. This would also serve to incite debate.

...And that would be destruction of private property (and probably B&E since you'd have to steal them). That's why people in protest burn folks in effigy. With something non-iconic like a professor's credentials, any rough facsimile would probably suffice, too. (perhaps that's what you meant ... it was unclear what "like" really meant in its context...)

[stashu]

This whole idea of burning the American flag as an expression of one's "freedom of speech" has always interested me.

I think it's a perfect example of the saying "with freedom comes responsibility" and indicates that those who practice and/or support this practice are not yet responsible enough to have the freedom itself.

Someone that burns the American flag because the disagree with their own government's policy, a president, a war, or whatever has their undies in a knot is actually chipping away at his or her own freedom of speech .

I mean, if flag burning started becoming more and more prevalent, it would push enough citizens to get angry enough to petition their elected representatives to pass a law against it. Pure and simple. And all the pointy heads in academia and the courts would have conniption fit.

This act itself just seems to be dripping with irony too.

Sure, the flag is just a piece of cloth, no big revelation there. But, it is also a symbol of many things to many people, including the right of free speech itself. So when someone destroys a flag, they are in effect, destroying their own rights AND the symbol of THEIR rights.

Anyway, when the average person sees someone burning an American flag, they're not seeing the issue that person is protesting or venting about. They're just seeing that symbol of what they hold dear, being destroyed by some spoiled brat.

And this whole idea that this professor is trying to open up discussion of the subject, bring a new perspective, or challenge their beliefs, etc. is BALONEY.

This is not "new perspective", this is forty-some year old "progressive" thought, the status quo nowadays.

It kills me how people view ideas and attitudes that were considered "progressive" or "anti-establishment" over forty years ago as still being so.
Don't they get it, they ARE the establishment. They just can't come to grips with it. The real progressives on this subject are the ones that see the flag as a symbol to respect.

So, I don't get that worked up when I see these people burn the flag. Let these kiddies(of all ages) push their envelope.

Let them think they're making a new and profound statement.

Eventually that envelope will push back.

Just my

[Skinsfan]

Originally Posted by stashu

This whole idea of burning the American flag as an expression of one's "freedom of speech" has always interested me.

I think it's a perfect example of the saying "with freedom comes responsibility" and indicates that those who practice and/or support this practice are not yet responsible enough to have the freedom itself.

Someone that burns the American flag because the disagree with their own government's policy, a president, a war, or whatever has their undies in a knot is actually chipping away at his or her own freedom of speech .

I mean, if flag burning started becoming more and more prevalent, it would push enough citizens to get angry enough to petition their elected representatives to pass a law against it. Pure and simple. And all the pointy heads in academia and the courts would have conniption fit.

This act itself just seems to be dripping with irony too.

Sure, the flag is just a piece of cloth, no big revelation there. But, it is also a symbol of many things to many people, including the right of free speech itself. So when someone destroys a flag, they are in effect, destroying their own rights AND the symbol of THEIR rights.

Anyway, when the average person sees someone burning an American flag, they're not seeing the issue that person is protesting or venting about. They're just seeing that symbol of what they hold dear, being destroyed by some spoiled brat.

And this whole idea that this professor is trying to open up discussion of the subject, bring a new perspective, or challenge their beliefs, etc. is BALONEY.

This is not "new perspective", this is forty-some year old "progressive" thought, the status quo nowadays.

It kills me how people view ideas and attitudes that were considered "progressive" or "anti-establishment" over forty years ago as still being so.
Don't they get it, they ARE the establishment. They just can't come to grips with it. The real progressives on this subject are the ones that see the flag as a symbol to respect.

So, I don't get that worked up when I see these people burn the flag. Let these kiddies(of all ages) push their envelope.

Let them think they're making a new and profound statement.

Eventually that envelope will push back.

Just my

Nicely put!

[The Professor]

And then it devolves into name-calling (as all of these threads do, I guess)....

~The "Pointy Head Academic" Professor

[JaKaAch]

Where's the name calling?

[Bigwaved]

Where is the discussion about the changes that have occurred since 9/11? My oh my, it sure does seem like the frog in the water story. It seems fairly clear that in the name of fighting the "global war" that the rights, protections, freedoms and moral fabric of our society have been either cast aside totally or chipped away at. I always thought we were supposed to be above that. Isn't that what those symbols represent?

[mr.c]

I am guilty of started something that I try to stay out of.

I guess I get pissed at.. well you have a right to burn the flag , you have a right to use the Constitution as toilet paper. I just wish that someone would teach that while you have those rights, there were people who lost their rights as a private citizens, were drafted fought and died so that we can have those rights. Just because you can doesnt mean you should.

bring back the draft. I think this country would be better for it.

the end

[yayson]

the flag stands for something, something that can't be legislated for or against. To burn it is just demonstrating that the guy lighting it has no idea, I pity anyone burning a flag for that reason

the Constitution, a lovely document when it was written, may as well be burned at this point in time shouldn't it? Let's keep it for reference I guess, or sell it on eBay and pay off our national debt

man, that was cynical

[Bigwaved]

Originally Posted by mr.c

I guess I get pissed at.. well you have a right to burn the flag , you have a right to use the Constitution as toilet paper. I just wish that someone would teach that while you have those rights, there were people who lost their rights as a private citizens, were drafted fought and died so that we can have those rights. Just because you can doesnt mean you should.

I agree with that. I feel the same way, but contrary to what others have said, people who choose to do so should not be deported or "beat up" or their personal property damaged. People do things all of the time that seem ignorant to someone else. That does not excuse violence, imo.

[stashu]

Originally Posted by The Professor

And then it devolves into name-calling (as all of these threads do, I guess)....

~The "Pointy Head Academic" Professor

I'm not referring to you. Sorry if you took it that way.

Surely you've heard this expression used by people in the academic world themselves.

But do you really think it would be "fun" to teach a free speech class on the word F*CK ?

[ResIpsa]

Originally Posted by The Professor

And then it devolves into name-calling (as all of these threads do, I guess)....Indeed. I will regularly say things in the *context* of a particular class discussion that are designed to get students to engage problems differently and to think independently and critically about prior held beliefs. That's what education is about, isn't it? Many universities (including all I have attended and taught at) were founded not as vocational institutions, but as institutions designed to prepare critical citizens.

Students like Ms. McDade who don't listen closely, have knee-jerk reactions, won't open themselves to learn different perspectives, and fit things they don't understand into a convenient and paranoid fantasy about "liberal professors" and "students' rights" just infuriate me....

BTW, teaching a free speech class would be fun. I think I'd probably have an entire unit on "FU*K" (but I'd spell out the whole word)



~The "Pointy Head Academic" Professor

as a Pointy Headed Officer of the Court....

while I agree with my pointy headed academician colleague, the professor in question needs some edumacating when it comes to the 1st Amendment.....

"If they don’t tolerate thought that they hate, they don’t believe in the First Amendment," he wrote

It applies to the government restricting speech, not your fellow citizens. Two demerits for him, and cancel all of his extra credit work.

[mr.c]

Originally Posted by Bigwaved

I agree with that. I feel the same way, but contrary to what others have said, people who choose to do so should not be deported or "beat up" or their personal property damaged. People do things all of the time that seem ignorant to someone else. That does not excuse violence, imo.

agreed

but if you burn a flag out side a VFW hall... I wont condone what happens next but I will understand it

[Skinsfan]

Originally Posted by ResIpsa

as a Pointy Headed Officer of the Court....

while I agree with my pointy headed academician colleague,