1 in 100 Americans are in Prison or Jail

[DETROITPHA357]

Originally Posted by Ms. Detroit

People have to get involved. As a teacher I try to help my students overcome growing up in bad situations. As well as getting themselves in bad situations. I teach 7th grade and I see social workers and probation officers all the time. I have taught various students who have been charged with stealing cars, leading a stolen car ring, leading police on a high spped chase in a stolen car, armed robbery, threats of terrorism, breaking a entering, arson, and vandalism. Your right there is no one answer, but we must start somewhere. Schools need parents, community members, bussiness and whoever else to help. If we don't come up with something it will always be like this. Young bright children growing up in poverty and drugs. If you want to help get involved!!!

Well put momma. I think the main thing is4all of us2help raise our village & try try try to police our own homes 1st then lend a helping hand wherever whenever we can. The lost generation is only lost if WE lose them. We have2take our time & pass our experience & knowledge down to them (even if they won't listen) Take care yall & as always 'watch your '6' out there' its a beautiful world we live in with cruel people trying2bring us down..

[macjoe53]

Originally Posted by jloutlaw

According to the book Freakanomics (a good read), a statitician chronicled and crack gang and most dealers make less than minimum wages. The guy in charge did ok, but wound up in prison.

I thought that's what I said. Mid and upper level dealers made money, the guy on the street corner did not.

[4thtry]

I work in law enforcement and you'd be absolutely amazed at the incredibly high recidivism rate of these offenders. The problem isn't the one guy that got caught with a bag of weed, i too, agree that there should be no jail time. I see everything from non payment of child support to drug kingpins and manslaughter (i dont work at a MAX facility). There's so many repeat offenders it makes you sick.

When you tell Joey the Crackhead to stop taking crack and to stop stealing to support his crack addiction, 6 times and he keeps showing up in front of the judge, there's no wonder why he gets jail time.

I've been working there for 3 years now, love my job, and i've seen people come and go like you wouldn't believe. We seriously should just put a revolving door at the front of the building. I've literally seen a man complete enough of his sentence to where the judge granted him to complete his sentence on house arrest.....not even 24 hours later, he was busted with cocaine & pipe. There are plenty of people that don't deserve to be in there for the petty crimes they've committed, but just look at what i discussed as a small microcosm of the USA as a whole.

It's no wonder we have the highest jailing rate, the ones that are sent to jail are either A. taught no lesson b/c of the jail sentence or B. they just don't care.

[macjoe53]

Originally Posted by WyoBob

I think it was in the book "Freakonomics" that I read an exerpt about the low-level drug sellers, that is, the "man on the street" and it stated they had a 1 in 4 chance of being killed. They made very low wages. In fact, the authors stated they would come out ahead working at McDonald's and would have a much greater chance of living. The big bucks are made by the higher-ups. The guy on the street is the patsy and risks his life for nothing.

WyoBob

That's why I said the mid to upper level drug dealers do it for the money.

I'm going to have to find and read the book "Freakonomics" It sounds like it's being treated as gospel truth. Don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting what it says but I'm not familiar with the book so I don't know who wrote it or what their "bona fides" are.

But what has not been addressed in comments posted are the "anecdotal" facts from people I have known in law enforcement that many young men living in near poverty see quite a few of their neighborhood "role" models driving expensive cars, wearing flashy jewelry and tossing money around like they are printing it and since these "role" models are making their money by dealing drugs, the kids see dealing drug as a suitable way to have more material possessions.

[tfar]

Originally Posted by 4thtry

I work in law enforcement and you'd be absolutely amazed at the incredibly high recidivism rate of these offenders. The problem isn't the one guy that got caught with a bag of weed, i too, agree that there should be no jail time. I see everything from non payment of child support to drug kingpins and manslaughter (i dont work at a MAX facility). There's so many repeat offenders it makes you sick.

When you tell Joey the Crackhead to stop taking crack and to stop stealing to support his crack addiction, 6 times and he keeps showing up in front of the judge, there's no wonder why he gets jail time.

I've been working there for 3 years now, love my job, and i've seen people come and go like you wouldn't believe. We seriously should just put a revolving door at the front of the building. I've literally seen a man complete enough of his sentence to where the judge granted him to complete his sentence on house arrest.....not even 24 hours later, he was busted with cocaine & pipe. There are plenty of people that don't deserve to be in there for the petty crimes they've committed, but just look at what i discussed as a small microcosm of the USA as a whole.

It's no wonder we have the highest jailing rate, the ones that are sent to jail are either A. taught no lesson b/c of the jail sentence or B. they just don't care.

I interpret this combined with the fact that Europe has a rate of incarceration per capita that is five times lower and also a lower crime statistic (particularly for violent crimes) combined with better/cheaper education and tougher gun laws to say that something needs to change big time here. But this will be very difficult because there are too many age-old cultural variables (like love of guns) and too much money (like privately run prisons) involved.

I know this sounds super crazy to most Americans but here are a couple of points that would need change:

-no more death penalty
-tougher gun control
-only people who actually got their JD can become judges
-judges are hired by the state with strict criteria, they are not elected by the people
-same for sheriffs and law enforcement
-no more juries in big trials, leave judging to professionals
-no more privately run prisons
-no minimum sentencing laws
-programs that aim more at re-socialization than at punishment as revenge
-more measures for crime prevention including greater economic equality and equality of chances and better education
-better health care and easier access to mental health care

I suspect it will take at least 20 more years before we see this.

Till

[macjoe53]

Originally Posted by tfar

I interpret this combined with the fact that Europe has a rate of incarceration per capita that is five times lower and also a lower crime statistic (particularly for violent crimes) combined with better/cheaper education and tougher gun laws to say that something needs to change big time here. But this will be very difficult because there are too many age-old cultural variables (like love of guns) and too much money (like privately run prisons) involved.

I know this sounds super crazy to most Americans but here are a couple of points that would need change:

-no more death penalty
-tougher gun control
-only people who actually got their JD can become judges
-judges are hired by the state with strict criteria, they are not elected by the people
-same for sheriffs and law enforcement
-no more juries in big trials, leave judging to professionals
-no more privately run prisons
-no minimum sentencing laws
-programs that aim more at re-socialization than at punishment as revenge
-more measures for crime prevention including greater economic equality and equality of chances and better education
-better health care and easier access to mental health care

I suspect it will take at least 20 more years before we see this.

Till

You can see it tomorrow, just move to Europe. The United States is not Europe and I don't see more than one or two of the items on your list happening in the next 20 years if they happen at all.

No more death penalty. Sorry. I disagree with you there. The death penalty does work in some cases simply because it takes the serial killers off the streets in a way that they don't kill again. I also believe the death penalty to be appropriate for some crimes.

Tougher gun control. Sure. Takes the guns from law abiding citizens and gives them to the criminals. One point you should have made is that it could possibly make it harder for psychological nuts to get guns - but don't count on that either. Some of the people involved in random shootings would have gotten the guns anyway.

As for the judges, I agree that judges should have law degrees and I don't know of any that are not lawyers first. I haven't seen any doctors elected to the bench. I just don't see the system changing to where all the judges are hired by the states either.

In Louisiana the Sheriff's may be elected but the officers are hired. Otherwise you would have people hired as Sheriff's who would gain too much power and never get out of office. With elections at least you can vote them out of power.

I thought trial by a jury of peers was one of the foundations of our legal system.

I think we could have no more privately run prison. But I really thought that those prisons were still controlled by the states and the companies running the prisons were contracted by the states at less cost than if the state employees were running the prisons.

I think minimum sentencing can be an injustice at times and should be looked at more closely on a case by case basis. That being said, and this is not about revenge, there has to be a consequence to committing crimes other than sending convicted offenders to school to try and teach them to play nice with others.

Every time I hear the catch phrase "Greater Economic Equality" I wonder how that can really be achieved. Do you make every job pay the same no matter what skill/knowledge level is needed to efficiently do the job? Do you tear down all the housing in the country and then build all new housing exactly the same so that everyone has the same house? Why not just take all the money away from the "rich" and divide it amongst the poor so that everyone has the same amount of money? And just for the record, I don't think there is greater economic equality in Europe either.

I think equal access to education is available in many cases if people chose to avail themselves of it. (I have led horses to water but I couldn't make them drink, either) That being said, I think many universities are run to make a buck and not better educate the students and that should change. In Louisiana, for example, there is a program called TOPS that pays tuition at Louisiana public universities for any Louisiana High School graduate that meets set educational standards (and they aren't very high). In other words, if they graduate after completing a core curriculum and score 18 or above on the ACT, their tuition is paid for four years. The students also have to meet a set grade point and take a set number of hours per semester.

I don't know of any law saying you only have two chances to make yourself better. The chances are available if people choose to take them.

I think the key to better health care and access to mental health care you mention sounds like socialized medicine. I think that access to both would be better if the courts would pass laws that would restrict frivolous malpractice lawsuits and excessive judgement awards. I say frivolous because some people see suing a doctor as a lottery ticket.

[mosesbotbol]

Originally Posted by macjoe53

The Governor of New Jersey was on the radio news a few minutes ago. He thinks convicted drug dealers wouldn't sell drugs when released from jail if they received training and given a job when they were released. Hmmm! Job paying $8 per hour or making a few hundred or thousands tax free dealing drugs? Why do you think they go back to selling drugs.

I think the mid-level to major drug dealers do it for the money.

The only way we can deter people from being drug dealers is to take the profit out of drugs; that is done through decriminalization.

If cocaine & heroin was $2.00 an ounce and all a user needed to do was go to a gov't licensed center, who would bother buying from a corner thug? Just as that person buys it in a safe and secure setting, they can opt to get the treatment they need to get off of it.

Plenty of crime is based on needed money to pay for drugs or selling of those drugs to fulfill that person's needs. All of this particular crime could disappear over night.

[tnip23]

Originally Posted by tfar

I interpret this combined with the fact that Europe has a rate of incarceration per capita that is five times lower and also a lower crime statistic (particularly for violent crimes) combined with better/cheaper education and tougher gun laws to say that something needs to change big time here. But this will be very difficult because there are too many age-old cultural variables (like love of guns) and too much money (like privately run prisons) involved.

I know this sounds super crazy to most Americans but here are a couple of points that would need change:

-no more death penalty
-tougher gun control
-only people who actually got their JD can become judges
-judges are hired by the state with strict criteria, they are not elected by the people
-same for sheriffs and law enforcement
-no more juries in big trials, leave judging to professionals
-no more privately run prisons
-no minimum sentencing laws
-programs that aim more at re-socialization than at punishment as revenge
-more measures for crime prevention including greater economic equality and equality of chances and better education
-better health care and easier access to mental health care

I suspect it will take at least 20 more years before we see this.

Till

sorry i just can't agree with most of your ideas. it seems your solution is to take more authority, rights, and control away from the people and put it in the hands of the gov't. I trust the people of this country a lot more than the bureaucracy of gov't. (please don't give me the people are the gov't argument as we're talking private sector vs. bureaucracy here) also, punishment isn't revenge, when you punish your kids is it because you want revenge on them? no, it's to correct inappropriate behavior. I agree that we need more creative punishments for lesser criminals, but believe the answers lie in the private sector, not in our gov't agencies. gov't would be best served by creating financial incentive for private sector companies to come up with new ideas.

[4thtry]

Originally Posted by tfar

I know this sounds super crazy to most Americans but here are a couple of points that would need change:

-no more death penalty
If i knew i could die for murder, i'd be less likely to murder. just my opinion
-tougher gun control
not sure how we'd do this. Current laws don't work. Guns that are legally bought at Mike's Gun Shop aren't the ones being used out there killing people (9 times out of 10)
-only people who actually got their JD can become judges
-judges are hired by the state with strict criteria, they are not elected by the people
are you taking rights away from the people?
-same for sheriffs and law enforcement
again?
-no more juries in big trials, leave judging to professionals
bingo
-no more privately run prisons
I can't believe that in this day & age there actually are such thing as Privately run prisons.
-no minimum sentencing laws
eh.....i dont know how i feel about that.
-programs that aim more at re-socialization than at punishment as revenge
While i agree with you on this one, you'd be shocked at how many programs are already in place for offenders. I think improvement of current programs needs to be implimented rather than create new ones
-more measures for crime prevention including greater economic equality and equality of chances and better education
drug trade needs to be less glorified in order for that to happen. Why get an education if you can stand on a st. corner handing out 1"x1" baggies all day making alot more than you would working an honest job
-better health care and easier access to mental health care
amen to that

I suspect it will take at least 20 more years before we see this.
.....if ever

Till
James

i like

[4thtry]

Originally Posted by tnip23

sorry i just can't agree with most of your ideas. it seems your solution is to take more authority, rights, and control away from the people and put it in the hands of the gov't. I trust the people of this country a lot more than the bureaucracy of gov't. (please don't give me the people are the gov't argument as we're talking private sector vs. bureaucracy here) also, punishment isn't revenge, when you punish your kids is it because you want revenge on them? no, it's to correct inappropriate behavior. I agree that we need more creative punishments for lesser criminals, but believe the answers lie in the private sector, not in our gov't agencies. gov't would be best served by creating financial incentive for private sector companies to come up with new ideas.

I agree with you 100%

[snkbyt]

a lot of good and bad points made here............I work for the State Corrections and can say there are plenty of programs in use for education and job training but many in the system CHOOSE not to use them and when they are released return to their old way of life and end up back in the same system but for a greater crime. If an inmate does good they are rewarded 10 days gain time which is taken off the end of their sentence (good behavior) and if they screw up the go to the box and have that time taken back......................some inmate never learn or want to change, therefor end up right back in prison in a short time after being released into society

[4thtry]

That's the problem at the jail I work at. Each day they're in education they get a day off the end of their sentence. they're not going to class b/c they want to gain a higher level of education and actually do something productive and honest with their lives, they're doing it so they can get out faster.

There are by far PLENTY of programs already in place. There is definitely no reason what so ever to implement more. Problem is the programs need to be completely revamped (sp?). They don't work, and the inmates that do thake the initiative to take them, are usually taking them for all the wrong reasons.

[Corona Gigante]

Originally Posted by tnip23

sorry i just can't agree with most of your ideas. it seems your solution is to take more authority, rights, and control away from the people and put it in the hands of the gov't. I trust the people of this country a lot more than the bureaucracy of gov't. (please don't give me the people are the gov't argument as we're talking private sector vs. bureaucracy here) also, punishment isn't revenge, when you punish your kids is it because you want revenge on them? no, it's to correct inappropriate behavior. I agree that we need more creative punishments for lesser criminals, but believe the answers lie in the private sector, not in our gov't agencies. gov't would be best served by creating financial incentive for private sector companies to come up with new ideas.

With all due respect, to suggest that the people who derive the biggest profits from the rising levels of incarceration are the best people to come up with ways of reducing the levels of incarceration makes no sense at all. You might as well put the oil industry in charge of national energy policy... oh, wait...

Criminal justice is by definition a function of the state. I trust the will of the people, as expressed through democratically elected government, far more to do what's right for society, than private industry, which is driven solely by the maximization of profit.

[tnip23]

Originally Posted by Corona Gigante

With all due respect, to suggest that the people who derive the biggest profits from the rising levels of incarceration are the best people to come up with ways of reducing the levels of incarceration makes no sense at all. You might as well put the oil industry in charge of national energy policy... oh, wait...

Criminal justice is by definition a function of the state. I trust the will of the people, as expressed through democratically elected government, far more to do what's right for society, than private industry, which is driven solely by the maximization of profit.

right back at you with the a.d. respect, but i think you are missing my point. the point was to provide financial incentive so the profit for said businesses would be in the alternative punishment arena, not in incarceration. Cr. Justice is indeed a function of the state(and needs to remain so at least as far as oversight)as are many inefficient overbloated gov't bureaucracies. Unfortunately maximizing profit exists in the public sector as well as politicians and bureaucrats line their pockets with $ from dubious sources. Maximizing profit is not a bad thing though if done in an arena of competing interests operating on an equal footing. To me, competition always produces the best result, and that can only exist in the private sector as the proper motivation just doesn't exist in the public sector.

[mdtaggart]

No more private prisons. Lets hire this guy to run our federal prison system.
Sheriff Joe Arpaio! http://www.sheriffjoe.org/ If you don't like the jail, then don't come back!

Seems like some are saying we should let the criminal go free, have a big group hug and sing songs. We are a nation of laws. Laws are created to protect our freedoms. Break the law, do the time.

Ones opinion about criminals may change when you have become the victim.