How do you think Cuba gets fixed?

[fsjonsey]

Originally Posted by MarbleApe

Just a thought, but with the rest of the world freely trading with Cuba, arn't the Cuban people still suffering? I mean isn't it up to the rest of the world to help fix Cuba? Is it only because of the Embargo that the people are made to suffer? Of course this sounds callus coming from a "fat American", but if the Cuban government in power doesn't see themselves as broken, why is it looked at solely as America's problem/responsability to save them? If we use force (war) we are the bad guys. If we use leverage (embargo) we are the bad guys. If we mind our own business (Nationalism) we are the bad guys.

To date, the govenment in power over Cuba is not asking anyone to help "fix" anything.

I love cigars as much at the next BOTL, but not at the expense, safety, or love of my own country.

Exactly.
The embargo has been used for years by castro apologists as the only excuse all of cuba's problems. Over the past fifty years, the Castro regime has grown obscenely wealthy on the backs of the people they claimed to free from capitalist "tyranny", yet the salary for an average cuban remains less than $30 a month. Dropping the embargo only serves to make the fat cats richer. Without political and economic freedom in cuba, this will not change.

[Addiction]

Originally Posted by fsjonsey

Exactly.
The embargo has been used for years by castro apologists as the only excuse all of cuba's problems. Over the past fifty years, the Castro regime has grown obscenely wealthy on the backs of the people they claimed to free from capitalist "tyranny", yet the salary for an average cuban remains less than $30 a month. Dropping the embargo only serves to make the fat cats richer. Without political and economic freedom in cuba, this will not change.

Wouldn't the counter point be that as the supposed bastion of democracy we can't have an impact on a society which we have no insight on and that has no insight on us?

[rrplasencia]

if the embargo was lifted what would be the effect on cigar prices industry wide???

[TankerT]

Originally Posted by rrplasencia

if the embargo was lifted what would be the effect on cigar prices industry wide???

Well... there would be more demand in the US for Cuban Cigars... possibly less demand for fine Non-Cuban cigars... and more fakes on the market too...

So, probably the Non-Cubans would be impacted the most... some dropping their prices. Authentic Cubans would probably go up a bit... at least for the short term.

[MarbleApe]

Originally Posted by Addiction

Wouldn't the counter point be that as the supposed bastion of democracy we can't have an impact on a society which we have no insight on and that has no insight on us?

But they have had insite with the rest of the world, and standard contact/trade lines through Canada, France, Germany, Greese, Italy, Japan, The United Kingdom, etc... who in turn are also bastions of democracy. Assuming a domocracy means places where "the people have a powerful control over a country's standard of living and standard of government". Why must it always be America's standard of Democracy that is on the line? If the current Cuban Government hasn't improved their relations with their own people under the influence of the rest of the world, why would the standards change with the sudden flow of US currency? How would a sudden infusion of US money through (many peoples eyes) an already corrupt and evil body of government help the standard citizen of Cuba? Lifting the embargo is not going to bring peace and acceptance to the heart of the Fidel regiem. Lifting the embargo alone, will not lift the people of Cuba.

[oldforge]

I know we are not supposed to venture too deep into political waters here, but I think all the posts so far are missing the critical question:

Why did we have an embargo against Cuba in the first place?

Answer, because they allied themselves with an enemy that had the will and capacity to destroy the US.

When the Cold War ended the reason for the embargo ended with it imho.

[taltos]

Originally Posted by oldforge

I know we are not supposed to venture too deep into political waters here, but I think all the posts so far are missing the critical question:

Why did we have an embargo against Cuba in the first place?

Answer, because they allied themselves with an enemy that had the will and capacity to destroy the US.

When the Cold War ended the reason for the embargo ended with it imho.

The reason for the embargo certainly still exists since Cuba still has a Cold War mentality and is still trying to export its brand of revolution throughout Central and South America. Let them stop their crap and make some of the other reforms listed in this thread and maybe things can change.

[gvarsity]

Depends on who gets to decide what fixed means. What visions the Cuban people, American people and their corresponding governments and/or future governments have for that country that would be considered to be a desired "outcome" are very likely not similar enough to be reconcilable. In a less gobbledygook way everybody wants something different so no one is going to be happy IMHO.

They all love their homeland but can't live in a place were the police could take you away for any reason they feel like that day.

According to recent legal precedent, based solely on being given the designation of enemy combatant, which is determined at the discretion of the President of the United States, this can and is currently happening in the United States. Just not at the scale that it has happened or happens in Cuba.

[rrplasencia]

Originally Posted by oldforge

I know we are not supposed to venture too deep into political waters here, but I think all the posts so far are missing the critical question:

Why did we have an embargo against Cuba in the first place?

Answer, because they allied themselves with an enemy that had the will and capacity to destroy the US.

When the Cold War ended the reason for the embargo ended with it imho.

true, and as late as 1999 we "may or may not have" encountered an akula class off the coast of GA that was followed by the NSJAX battle group until they reached cuban waters. i can neither confirm nor deny these events, that's what they told us to say in the navy.

[Cadillac]

Lifting the embargo would make a difference. Cuban's would begin to see what a democratic system would have to offer. They might not get it directly into their hands, but a least they would see it. Let's not forget there is a large intelligent portion of the people in Cuba that like their government.

Many of the old Cubans remember very well what it was like before Castro came into power... Extreme corruption (not saying it doesn't exist now). The mafia was totally ingrained into their society. Much of the infastructure that still stands today was directly built from Mafia dollars. Including an underpass through a mountain so people could compute from Varadero to Havana with ease. The rich where very rich, and the poor was very poor. Castro promised something different, and when it didn't begin to take shape, and he needed help from someone - States said no, U.S.S.R. said yes.

Makes me wonder actually if the lack of support in the bay of pigs caused the mafia to get quite upset. Upset enough to assassinate a president? Another possible theory?

[vicvitola]

The US did nothing when the previous regime in Cuba violated the human rights of it's own people. It's easy to point to Cuba as the last of the evil Communists meanwhile the Chinese suffer similar injustices at the hands of it's leaders and the US does nothing, in fact we do the opposite by being it's biggest consumer. I believe the thought process was with the embargo in place Cuba would not last 5 - 10 years with the current regime. How resilient the Cuban people proved they are. It's an embarrassment to me as an American that it remains in place. It serves to accomplish nothing.

What is the cure? The Cuban people will decide when they desire change enough to rise to change things as they did before. When that happens let's hope we let them decide for themselves how they will live rather then sending force fed neocolonialism like we do or attempt to do in so many other countries.

[blugill]

Originally Posted by Cadillac

Lifting the embargo would make a difference. Cuban's would begin to see what a democratic system would have to offer. They might not get it directly into their hands, but a least they would see it. Let's not forget there is a large intelligent portion of the people in Cuba that like their government.

Many of the old Cubans remember very well what it was like before Castro came into power... Extreme corruption (not saying it doesn't exist now). The mafia was totally ingrained into their society. Much of the infastructure that still stands today was directly built from Mafia dollars. Including an underpass through a mountain so people could compute from Varadero to Havana with ease. The rich where very rich, and the poor was very poor. Castro promised something different, and when it didn't begin to take shape, and he needed help from someone - States said no, U.S.S.R. said yes.

Makes me wonder actually if the lack of support in the bay of pigs caused the mafia to get quite upset. Upset enough to assassinate a president? Another possible theory?

Actually they wouldn't see what a democracy is like. Lifting an embargo wouldn't necessarily mean that they would have access to a free press to see what an example of a democracy is like.

It wouldn't mean that books would automatically be unbanned such as Martin Luther King Jr.'s biography.

It wouldn't mean that the internet would flourish and a free trade of ideas would ensue in Cuba.

There are plenty of countries that don't have an embargo with Cuba and yet Cuba still has problems with basic political freedoms, contrary to all the examples they have access to including Canada.

As long as dictators such as Castro remains in power to deny freedom to their people the embargo should remain.

America really is in a no win situation here. We are and should be the beacon of freedom and hope around the world but it is rarely that simple.

[krisko]

Originally Posted by blugill

Actually they wouldn't see what a democracy is like. Lifting an embargo wouldn't necessarily mean that they would have access to a free press to see what an example of a democracy is like.

It wouldn't mean that books would automatically be unbanned such as Martin Luther King Jr.'s biography.

It wouldn't mean that the internet would flourish and a free trade of ideas would ensue in Cuba.

It would mean a ton of exiled Cubans would visit Cuba and bring with them their ideas about freedom and how to go about making change. Again, the entire idea that Cubans want change is debatable anyway since they haven't made it happen over the last 45 years.

[M1903A1]

Originally Posted by vicvitola

The US did nothing when the previous regime in Cuba violated the human rights of it's own people.

Fulgencio Batista was a classic case of the postwar "he's an SOB, but he's OUR SOB" world outlook. The Eisenhower government (at the behest of the State Department) threw him under the bus in 1959, under the foolish belief that Castro was a man of his word.

I believe the thought process was with the embargo in place Cuba would not last 5 - 10 years with the current regime. How resilient the Cuban people proved they are.

The bigger reason that the Castro regime has held up as long as it has is that, for both strategic and propaganda reasons, the Soviet Union actively subsidized the island state all the way to the end of the Cold War--even as he drove them crazy with his double-dealing and export of "world revolution" across the Third World, contrary to Moscow's will.

What is the cure? The Cuban people will decide when they desire change enough to rise to change things as they did before. When that happens let's hope we let them decide for themselves how they will live rather then sending force fed neocolonialism like we do or attempt to do in so many other countries.

Rise against a police state...with what?

[replicant_argent]

Originally Posted by krisko

Let's imagine for a moment that things aren't all that terrible in Cuba. Everyone gets an education and a job, it wasn't always like that in Cuba. I'm no closet socialist mind you, but it seems to be working in Cuba.

There is a problem with that statement, and one that many believe is true. I think your statement can be addressed by someone that has/had first hand experience with precisely the opposite of your inference to the current situation.

[SIZE="3"]Paging Blueface, Blueface to the red phone please.[/SIZE]

My wife and I had a discussion while driving around Chicago with Carlos and his wife last year that might enlighten your perception of what you and many others take as gospel as to the actual standards of living, and state of the economy in Cuba. We would all love to believe that Cuba has the highest per capita of doctors in the world, for example, but when those doctors don't have even the basics of their profession at the ready, and the ability to use them at will, it is as useless as having the best painters in the world and only the 2 colors the state provides, and that being rationed to an infinitesimal amount that is essentially not even a drop in the bucket of human care and kindness.