How do you think Cuba gets fixed?

[vicvitola]

Originally Posted by M1903A1

Fulgencio Batista was a classic case of the postwar "he's an SOB, but he's OUR SOB" world outlook. The Eisenhower government (at the behest of the State Department) threw him under the bus in 1959, under the foolish belief that Castro was a man of his word.

The outlook of the US and a few others perhaps but certainly not of the world. As I said the US did nothing. Nothing for the Cuban people when action would have mattered the most.

Originally Posted by M1903A1

The bigger reason that the Castro regime has held up as long as it has is that, for both strategic and propaganda reasons, the Soviet Union actively subsidized the island state all the way to the end of the Cold War--even as he drove them crazy with his double-dealing and export of "world revolution" across the Third World, contrary to Moscow's will.

I would agree to an extent but that support dwindled significantly post Krushev.

Originally Posted by M1903A1

Rise against a police state...with what?

It wouldn't be the first time or the last. However after thinking on it some more it will probably happen after a period of reforms within the next 5 - 10 years.

[blugill]

Originally Posted by krisko

It would mean a ton of exiled Cubans would visit Cuba and bring with them their ideas about freedom and how to go about making change. Again, the entire idea that Cubans want change is debatable anyway since they haven't made it happen over the last 45 years.

If the embargo were lifted I don't think the exiled Cubans would return home since the government they fled would still be in power.

They did leave for a reason, they weren't kicked out of Cuba.

[rrplasencia]

Originally Posted by blugill

If the embargo were lifted I don't think the exiled Cubans would return home since the government they fled would still be in power.

They did leave for a reason, they weren't kicked out of Cuba.

I think many would visit but nothing they knew exists any longer, so it would only be to visit. i would love to see were my parents and grandparent lived. many others just want a chance to visit with their families.

[blugill]

Perhaps many would visit, maybe all even.

I guess until it actually happens it is theoretical.

I hope for the fall of the communist regime and the restoration of Cuba to its people, a big bright future full of freedom and rights they haven't had.

[Blueface]

Originally Posted by pcozad1

It will take a revolution by the cuban people again. Pat

Originally Posted by taltos

A good start even before installing another form of government would be to start talks on reparations to the families whose industries were nationalized. This would begin to show good faith on the part of the Cuban government. A release of political prisoners and an accounting of those murdered by the Cuban government would also help.

I was going to stay out of this thread but what the heck.
Give these two guys a cigar for being truly logical.

[Blueface]

Originally Posted by krisko

There is no doubt that the embargo is more about the Cubans in Miami than the Cubans in Havana. Lifting the embargo would be the most logical thing a president can do but it would be political suicide. Florida has never counted more than it did in 2000 and in 2008. A candidate would probably lose Florida if they proposed lifting the embargo. Unfortunately, the people of Cuba are losers in this debate.

I have no clue how to take that.
I am one of those Cubans in Miami for the most part.
Can anyone imagine for the life of them why those Cubans in Miami feel the way they feel?

[Blueface]

Originally Posted by krisko

Let's imagine for a moment that things aren't all that terrible in Cuba. Everyone gets an education and a job, it wasn't always like that in Cuba. I'm no closet socialist mind you, but it seems to be working in Cuba.

Really?
It is working?
No kidding.
I need to go figure out what the heck my dad was thinking of when he lost everything he owned to come to America.
Darn fool should have stuck it out for the $12 a month on average that doesn't buy him a darn thing.

[Blueface]

Originally Posted by MarbleApe

Just a thought, but with the rest of the world freely trading with Cuba, arn't the Cuban people still suffering? I mean isn't it up to the rest of the world to help fix Cuba?

Give the man a cigar.

Amazing.
The Embargo does not work yet that is what is oppressing the Cuban people.
Has nothing to do with a lousy form of government proven to not work.

[Blueface]

Originally Posted by Cadillac

Lifting the embargo would make a difference. Cuban's would begin to see what a democratic system would have to offer. They might not get it directly into their hands, but a least they would see it. Let's not forget there is a large intelligent portion of the people in Cuba that like their government.

Many of the old Cubans remember very well what it was like before Castro came into power... Extreme corruption (not saying it doesn't exist now). The mafia was totally ingrained into their society. Much of the infastructure that still stands today was directly built from Mafia dollars. Including an underpass through a mountain so people could compute from Varadero to Havana with ease. The rich where very rich, and the poor was very poor. Castro promised something different, and when it didn't begin to take shape, and he needed help from someone - States said no, U.S.S.R. said yes.
Makes me wonder actually if the lack of support in the bay of pigs caused the mafia to get quite upset. Upset enough to assassinate a president? Another possible theory?

I wish there were enough of these symbols for me to use on this reply.
Amazing.
I'd like to know evidence of that "large intelligent population".
Must be a great kept secret to us Cubans.

The rich were rich, the poor were poor, now all are poor.
Castro was a Communist from the word go who fooled the Cuban people.
It is utterly ridiculous to infer he turned to Russia because we did not help him.
His plans for a Communist Cuba were long in the works.

[krisko]

Originally Posted by Blueface

I have no clue how to take that.
I am one of those Cubans in Miami for the most part.
Can anyone imagine for the life of them why those Cubans in Miami feel the way they feel?

You shouldn't take it personal, it's merely opinion. No US president cares about the inner workings of Cuba, especially since they no longer try to export socialism to other countries in the hemisphere. What a president does care about however is getting elected and these days that means carrying Florida. The latino base is very well organized politically in Florida. It's simple, you propose lifting the embargo, you lose in FL.

Originally Posted by Blueface

Really?
It is working?
No kidding.
I need to go figure out what the heck my dad was thinking of when he lost everything he owned to come to America.
Darn fool should have stuck it out for the $12 a month on average that doesn't buy him a darn thing.

The majority of the population of Cuba likes things the way they are. I haven't seen any polls of course but since I haven't heard of a revolution there in the last 50 years then I have to assume this is the case.

Many experts on the issue agree that the embargo is not working towards our goals in Cuba and has in fact had disastrous unintended consequences (US foreign policy had unintended consequences? You don't say.) Of course the greatest unintended consequence is the embargo is a source of Castro's power and likely kept him in power. Not to mention the suffering of the cuban economy and people.

You are Cuban so there is no debating you on this issue (I lived in Miami for 24 years). I merely ask you look at the embargo from a logical point of view. It has not worked and it will not work.
Nuff said.

[krisko]

Originally Posted by blugill

If the embargo were lifted I don't think the exiled Cubans would return home since the government they fled would still be in power.

They did leave for a reason, they weren't kicked out of Cuba.

I frankly don't think the cuban people would go back to Cuba if socialism ended. Post Castros, things will really suck in Cuba for a while. I don't see Cubans giving up what they've got in America to start over again.

Some will go back for business opportunities but you won't see a max exodus from the US to Cuba.

[M1903A1]

The majority of the population of Cuba likes things the way they are. I haven't seen any polls of course but since I haven't heard of a revolution there in the last 50 years then I have to assume this is the case.

Kinda hard to think of anything other than the world you know, when you've been brought up on the evils of capitalism and a steady diet of propaganda since 1959. One of humanity's universal truths, IMO, is that change to something unfamiliar is a scary thing.

And I think the tens of thousands (and probably more) of Cubans who've bailed for other countries (the US, Spain, Venezuela, Mexico, Eastern Europe and on and on) from 1959 on is the ultimate vote of no-confidence in their government.

And as to the lack of another revolution...like I hinted at in a prior post, it's kinda hard to start one in a police state where the attitude of the top dogs is, to quote an ancient Roman emperor, "Stick together, pay the soldiers and forget everything else".

[krisko]

Originally Posted by replicant_argent

There is a problem with that statement, and one that many believe is true. I think your statement can be addressed by someone that has/had first hand experience with precisely the opposite of your inference to the current situation.

I didn't mean to infer that things in Cuba are ideal, merely that they have been worse. A lot worse under other recent governments. And the ultimate measure of a successful government is it's longevity. There's been no uprising so either the Cuban people are happy or they don't care. Either way, it's not our problem.

[krisko]

Originally Posted by M1903A1

And I think the tens of thousands (and probably more) of Cubans who've bailed for other countries (the US, Spain, Venezuela, Mexico, Eastern Europe and on and on) from 1959 on is the ultimate vote of no-confidence in their government.

That is an excellent way to express disatisfaction with your government. You leave and no longer contribute your taxes and your effort towards supporting it. If I began to feel oppressed by my government, I would either work to overthrow it or I would leave and start over somewhere else.

If the Cubans won't overthrow Castro, why should the US get involved? What is the end game for the exiles in Miami? Full scale US invasion? 'Bay of Pigs' style support? Continue the embargo for another 50 years? What is the goal here?

Edit: This is my last post to this thread or any that discusses the embargo. I've been getting some unwanted attention via PM and I just want to keep things positive in here. Have any of the other members against the embargo been getting some advice via PM about their views? Respond by PM if uncomfortable publicly...just curious.

Sorry if I hurt any feelings...I'm Krisko and I'm here to discuss the pursuit of a great cigar!

[rrplasencia]

Originally Posted by krisko

'Bay of Pigs' style support?

ah yes, my uncle spent 13 years in a jail cell in cuba after kennedy pulled his "support" leaving them stranded on a beach waiting.

Originally Posted by krisko

The majority of the population of Cuba likes things the way they are.

When people risk themselves and their children on a matress turned into a raft they do not like things the way they are.

Nobody should be getting negative pm's over this. It's just people expressing and sharing different opinions and points of views. We need to still behave like BOTL's.