Oregon - The Right to Die law upheld

[IHT]

Originally Posted by RcktS4

I have heard a hell of a lot of opinions from people that do not understand this law, have not researched the law, and argue against what the law does not say.

but lets all keep our calm about it. i know it's a touchy subject.
fpdoc - relax.. ppl will always dog on one profession or another. hell, i'm part of the propoganda dept of some right wing conspiracy... or so i've been told.

[RcktS4]

Here's my overall opinion on this, and why the arguments against 'right to die' ring hollow to me:

When I was twelve, I was walking across my yard, and I found a squirrel that had apparently been caught under the apartment's lawn mowing service wheels. It's neck was ripped open, it was obviously distressed, and there was no chance whatsoever it would survive the ordeal. I told my mother, and she took me outside and explained to me that the squirrel was suffering, and that the most merciful and humane thing we could do was to end its suffering. We killed it in a quick and respectful fashion

I have since done this with three of my pets, animals who arguably taught me more about love and companionship than any other living being. haven't most of us, and wouldn't most decent people, put a beloved pet dog or cat down to end its terminal suffering? Do we do this out of convenience and spite, or compassion and Love?

Now, the big question: If that pet was capable of 'conscious thought', and were self-aware (in the sense we see people as being), and could ASK for an end to its suffering, would that very capacity make you feel it inappropriate to aid it in its wishes? Would you, in fact, deny its right to end its own suffering in as painless a way as possible just because it was capable of desiring and asking for it? Because that's what this sounds like to me...

There is a lot of talk about it being 'unfair' to the families for people to choose to end their lives, but it smells more to me like people unfairly burdening the sufferer to assuage their own selfish guilt and desire.

That's just how I see it.

edit: Please note that the law in question makes absolutely NO allowance for anyone else, in any capacity whatsoever, to make this decision, or carry out the actions, for the affected person. There is no equivalent to the DNR here, no 'making my wishes known beforehand, and no allowance for families to decide this for the person UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. So please, can we leave those ideas out of this?

[punch]

Originally Posted by FpDoc77

I actually agree with much of this but find your references towards physicians offensive. To think physicians prolong life for profit is merely sick and ignorant. Physicians and hospitals actually get paid more if they get people out of the hospital quicker. You really need to educate yourself about a subject before speaking upon it. Hospitals are paid a base rate upon the disease process. If someone stays 2 months in the hospital they will be paid the same if they are in the hospital for 2 days. Hospitals are paid based on diagnosis not amount of time stayed. When they prolong life they actually lose money. On most fronts your physician will be paid the same no matter how long or little you stay.

I'll address a couple of points, but I do not wish to get into a pissing contest here. First, I am better educated on the subject than you may think. I am on our Union's negotiating committee for health care benefits and I keep a very good watch on the situation here in Nebraska. I don't know the situation in Ohio, so I will not comment on the accuracy of your statements regarding where you practice. I can tell you that they are innaccurate in this state. I only wish that we paid the hospitals based on the desease rate and not by the day. It would greatly reduce our insurance premiums. It is also possible that we are discussing differing kinds of care. I am aware that payments made to hospitals for Medicare and Welfare and for illegal aliens and other people on the public dole are quite different than what is charged to those of us with insurance policies. I deal with working people with insurance, and that is what I based my statements on. I understand that insurance laws vary from state to state and what we deal with here in Nebraska may not be the norm for other parts of the country.

I also have no problem with whatever MY physician(s) is/are paid. I have a real problem when I am billed by every person in a lab coat that sticks his head in my room during the course of the day. Yes this has happened to me, and yes I have fought it and had my bill reduced.

Upon re-reading my post, I can see where it could have been taken as insulting to the medical profession. I am sorry, but I do not hold the medical profession in general in very high regard, and I have my reasons for this. I do, however, acknowledge and value the very many people within the profession who view their jobs as a service to humanity and put in long hours caring for people and trying to make life (or what is left of it) better for us. I am truely sorry if I painted them with the same brush as the profit driven administrators, drug pushers and other leaches that I had in mind at the time I made the post. I am sure that the former are the majority of the profession. Unfortunately, it is that latter that get the attention, and I agree this is wrong, and wrong of me to continue this attitude with my post. I understand where you are coming from and hope you understand me. I am sorry if I insulted you personally, and I take no offense at what you wrote in response.

[AAlmeter]

In general, if hospitalized, you are billed for every little thing...each meal, each hour, each doctor, each toilet flush, each shot, each bandaid...you get the idea.

Visits to a doctor's office are generally billed as Fpdoc suggests...one visit/treatment for ______.

I've never heard of someone staying overnight in a doctor's office though.

For a doctor, I think you could have explained this a little more clearly fpdoc. Just my

[FpDoc77]

Originally Posted by IHT

then why do we get bills from Drs, the nurses, the hospital, the bed pan cleaner, and the physical therapist in SEPERATE BILLS?
why are we not charged a FLAT RATE?

Because most doctors are not paid by the hospital. If insurance doesnt pay the doctor directly then it falls onto the shoulders of the patient. Please take out the bills sometime and look at your biggest charges. It wasnt your primary care doctor gouging your dad. Second, doctors are obligated by law to make "reasonable effort to collect". Which basically means letters to the patient. Its medicaid/medicare fraud for a doctor to charge anyone less than what medicaid actually pays the physician. Docs do it but it is illegal. Very few docs will actually put you in collections. The ones that do really need to have their heads checked. As for the hospital bills they can be negotiated wayyyy down and you can make very small payments on them to keep those out of collection. I hope this explaination helps some. When you are private pay the normal rules of how a hospital gets paid go out the window.

[FpDoc77]

Originally Posted by RcktS4

No, it was the fact that you were offended at someone having an opinion and chastised him for it in nearly the same breath that you offered your opinion without having researched the topic of discussion.

Just a little sense of irony behind it...

I have heard a hell of a lot of opinions from people that do not understand this law, have not researched the law, and argue against what the law does not say.

I said I was offended on his take on physicians and that he needed to educate himself on how physicians actually get paid. I seriously hope that didnt hurt his feelings. I actually said I agreed with his general stance about Christian values and this idea of suicide. Second I wasnt argueing for or against this particular law because as I said before I havent done enough research on this specific law to have an educated opinion. However I do have an opinion on physician assisted suicide in general. First do no harm...those words should keep any physician from taking life. As for terminal weans (taking people off of vents) or stopping medical treatment which will lead to their death I have zero problem with.

[FpDoc77]

Originally Posted by punch

I'll address a couple of points, but I do not wish to get into a pissing contest here. First, I am better educated on the subject than you may think. I am on our Union's negotiating committee for health care benefits and I keep a very good watch on the situation here in Nebraska. I don't know the situation in Ohio, so I will not comment on the accuracy of your statements regarding where you practice. I can tell you that they are innaccurate in this state. I only wish that we paid the hospitals based on the desease rate and not by the day. It would greatly reduce our insurance premiums. It is also possible that we are discussing differing kinds of care. I am aware that payments made to hospitals for Medicare and Welfare and for illegal aliens and other people on the public dole are quite different than what is charged to those of us with insurance policies. I deal with working people with insurance, and that is what I based my statements on. I understand that insurance laws vary from state to state and what we deal with here in Nebraska may not be the norm for other parts of the country.

I also have no problem with whatever MY physician(s) is/are paid. I have a real problem when I am billed by every person in a lab coat that sticks his head in my room during the course of the day. Yes this has happened to me, and yes I have fought it and had my bill reduced.

Upon re-reading my post, I can see where it could have been taken as insulting to the medical profession. I am sorry, but I do not hold the medical profession in general in very high regard, and I have my reasons for this. I do, however, acknowledge and value the very many people within the profession who view their jobs as a service to humanity and put in long hours caring for people and trying to make life (or what is left of it) better for us. I am truely sorry if I painted them with the same brush as the profit driven administrators, drug pushers and other leaches that I had in mind at the time I made the post. I am sure that the former are the majority of the profession. Unfortunately, it is that latter that get the attention, and I agree this is wrong, and wrong of me to continue this attitude with my post. I understand where you are coming from and hope you understand me. I am sorry if I insulted you personally, and I take no offense at what you wrote in response.

First let me address AA quickly before I move onto your statements punch. Im not sure what you didnt understand. Maybe it was the private pay situation vs the insurance medicare/medicaid payment. If you are billed by the hospital as a private pay you are correct you will get an itemized bill and it will be very detailed. But in most states with most insurance companies in the current medical environment hospitals are paid a flat rate on the type of disease, the complexity of the illness and so forth. In this environment it pays a hospital to discharge.

Punch, I didnt mean for this to be a "pissing" match either. It does get me a bit fired up when people trash physicians. As you said there are bad apples in every profession. But physicians spent the best years of their lives learning to serve and heal. Very few actually get into the profession for the money. If they do then they are very stupid individuals. There are so many better ways to make money. You have to love what you do. You have to see yourself as a servant, as being given the gift to heal. Some ignorant physicians do lose sight of that. I hope your bad experience doesnt taint your view on the medical profession as a whole.

As for your insurance company in Nebraska. Like you said I cant tell you whats going on in Nebraska. But if your hospital is a PPO or HMO provider then I assure you much of their money is paid in the way I stated earlier. Now if its a hospital that only accepts private/federal/state insurance then I could see how the payment arrangement could be different. With that said even PPO's HMO's differ from state to state even from city to city. So I dont negate your reference. I find it very possible that your insurance works exactly as you say it works. The question I would ask is...Where does the majority of your local hospital revenue come from? In most cases your scenerio would not be the standard.

[punch]

Originally Posted by FpDoc77

I seriously hope that didnt hurt his feelings.

Do not worry in the least. I have no feelings.

[ky toker]

I have since done this with three of my pets, animals who arguably taught me more about love and companionship than any other living being. haven't most of us, and wouldn't most decent people, put a beloved pet dog or cat down to end its terminal suffering? Do we do this out of convenience and spite, or compassion and Love?

Not that I have been against the right to die, but I've never really been a fan of this idea either and your analogy actually put it in a new light for me. I bet I'll think of this a bit different now.