They are taking my dog!

[Mad Hatter]

I never cease to be amazed

[mhailey]

Originally Posted by wolfman

Well guys I am not going to get into this and start a big argument, but we do dog rescue and You may not see the whole picture. Most of these people have spent their own money and time to get these dogs out of quite often terrible situations. I have driven 8 to 10 hours to take a dog to a safe location. nursed dogs back to health that were due to be put to sleep by the shelter and spent 100's of dollars of my own money to help a dog find the right home. So they are dedicated but not nut jobs. I am pretty sure if you read your contracts you will find that the clause is going to be spelled out about leaving unattended dogs alone. It should also say in your contract that you give the organization permission to enter your property and remove a dog if it is not being cared for in the manner that was agreed to in the contract. The problem with having dogs out while you are gone is that all kinds of things can happen. I saw a dog who was left unattended get something wrapped around his tail and nearly rip it off. The dog was hurt and bleeding for 6 hrs before the owner finally came home, and his tail had to be amputated. Things can get into the yard while you are gone. I have seen dogs get bit by rattlesnakes attacked by rabid raccoons and foxes and also seen them poisoned by neighbors and taunted by kids. You have to understand that as rescuers our main concern is the dog, we have invested a considerable amount of time, energy, love and money into these animals and we don't want them to be put into situations where they may be hurt again.

My father is my veterinarian, and you don't have to tell me the horrors that can befall a dog. I have seen it all and then some. That is why I went to a rescue. HOWEVER, leaving a dog outside in nice weather for 4 to 5 hours 2 to 3 times per week is nothing. That is not abuse, that is not neglect. Like it was already posted, a dog can get into many things that will hurt it, either inside or outside. How about a dog that sees a squire outside through the window, jumps to go after it, goes through the window and slices his intestines open? I've seen that. You tell me which is better, losing a tail, or being disemboweled? If you want to protect a dog from everything that could possibly harm it, you have to keep it in a kennel 24/7, but then that dog would probably not want to go on with its life, because it cannot be a dog.

Like I said to others, these nuts are elevating the creation over the creator, and have placed the dog on a pedestal, to be honored as a deity. They are the priests and priestess, telling us how we will worship their deity.

Matt

[Blueface]

Originally Posted by wolfman

Well guys I am not going to get into this and start a big argument, but we do dog rescue and You may not see the whole picture. Most of these people have spent their own money and time to get these dogs out of quite often terrible situations. I have driven 8 to 10 hours to take a dog to a safe location. nursed dogs back to health that were due to be put to sleep by the shelter and spent 100's of dollars of my own money to help a dog find the right home. So they are dedicated but not nut jobs. I am pretty sure if you read your contracts you will find that the clause is going to be spelled out about leaving unattended dogs alone. It should also say in your contract that you give the organization permission to enter your property and remove a dog if it is not being cared for in the manner that was agreed to in the contract. The problem with having dogs out while you are gone is that all kinds of things can happen. I saw a dog who was left unattended get something wrapped around his tail and nearly rip it off. The dog was hurt and bleeding for 6 hrs before the owner finally came home, and his tail had to be amputated. Things can get into the yard while you are gone. I have seen dogs get bit by rattlesnakes attacked by rabid raccoons and foxes and also seen them poisoned by neighbors and taunted by kids. You have to understand that as rescuers our main concern is the dog, we have invested a considerable amount of time, energy, love and money into these animals and we don't want them to be put into situations where they may be hurt again.

While I see your points, I wonder what we have evolved to.
I keep mine indoors and wouldn't leave my home with them outside.
They go in their crates until I return.
However, that is vastly different from what I grew up with.
Dogs were for the yard.
We loved them.
We cared for them.
Provided them a dog house for shelter.
Provided them with ample food and water.
BUT, they lived in the yard and were never allowed in the house.

I just returned from Belize were dogs are pretty much treated in that manner also. They are for yards and protection.

We somehow have evolved into a society that treats dogs like children (I cast no stones as I am the biggest offender of this as mine are our kids, we call the two males "the boys" and they sleep in my bed). I would put Layla the Pit Bull in bed also if the wife will not let me.
They are dogs.
They come from wolves.
They lived in the wild and survived all these years.
If they are not being abused due to weather conditions or harmful chains, can't see being left outdoors a big deal.
However, at the end of the day, it is all based on the contract and its terms.

[Puro_Angler]

Originally Posted by Blueface

While I see your points, I wonder what we have evolved to.
I keep mine indoors and wouldn't leave my home with them outside.
They go in their crates until I return.
However, that is vastly different from what I grew up with.
Dogs were for the yard.
We loved them.
We cared for them.
Provided them a dog house for shelter.
Provided them with ample food and water.
BUT, they lived in the yard and were never allowed in the house.

You're absolutely right. I had two pure bred dogs when I was a kid. My father never allowed them inside the house. Both dogs lived 10+ years, without serious complications. Ok, one time a dog bit a frog and got poisoned; a trip to the vet cured her and a big lesson was learned...for the dog. As previously stated, dogs can get into just as much trouble indoors. That is why I crate my dog when I'm away even though he absolutely hates it.

[Cigary]

Where is Soloman when you need him? Valid arguments on both sides and I also started thinking about children, do we not know of similar circumstances where we see how kids are being raised as well? I see some neighborhood kids who run the streets because the parents work and don't get home til 6 or 7 pm and then their is the reverse where I see kids who hardly ever get to play outside because the parents worry about "what might" happen? Glad I am thru raising mine and it's a wonder when I was a kid how I survived in the 60's when we played outside for 10 hours straight,,drank out of water hoses that were 3 years old,,,or rode our bikes 5 miles away just to ride them to a friends house. How about this one, remember when we climb on the roof of our house and run around and we had a pool in our back yard and my brother and I use to dive off the house into the pool? I'm wondering how this would play out in todays society?

[ade06]

From what Mhailey has stated here, it doesn't sound like there is any abuse or neglect going on. He clearly cares about his dogs because he has come here to vent his frustrations and he wanted to return the one dog that wasn't adjusting to his family. That doesn't sound like someone who is indifferent or abusive towards animals. I would think that especially during the current financial times, when families are returning animals to rescues and shelters in record numbers due to their pet's expenses, these rescues and shelters would be more flexible in their approach to caring owners and not threaten to take their pets solely based upon whether they leave their pets alone outside in an enclosed yard for a few hours.

[Blueface]

Originally Posted by Cigary

Where is Soloman when you need him? Valid arguments on both sides and I also started thinking about children, do we not know of similar circumstances where we see how kids are being raised as well? I see some neighborhood kids who run the streets because the parents work and don't get home til 6 or 7 pm and then their is the reverse where I see kids who hardly ever get to play outside because the parents worry about "what might" happen? Glad I am thru raising mine and it's a wonder when I was a kid how I survived in the 60's when we played outside for 10 hours straight,,drank out of water hoses that were 3 years old,,,or rode our bikes 5 miles away just to ride them to a friends house. How about this one, remember when we climb on the roof of our house and run around and we had a pool in our back yard and my brother and I use to dive off the house into the pool? I'm wondering how this would play out in todays society?

Just wait.
Trampolines will soon be a thing of the past.
You can get hurt on them.

I think we are going to raise kids in the future who can break bones by thinking about it. I still remember when anyone hit the ball onto the roof of the school yard where we use to sneak into through a hole in the fence. It was one nasty tall second floor that felt more like a three story as we climbed. We couldn't afford to lose balls as had little money for another one. If you hit it up there, you went and got it. The only way to get it was to climb via a drain pipe and use the clamps for support to get you up there. Most of us fell on the way back down after we got the ball. Bruised chins, shins, knees, elbows and an occasional crack in the head but we lived. The beating we would give each other if we refused to go get the ball was worse.

[Cigary]

Originally Posted by Blueface

Just wait.
Trampolines will soon be a thing of the past.
You can get hurt on them.

I think we are going to raise kids in the future who can break bones by thinking about it. I still remember when anyone hit the ball onto the roof of the school yard where we use to sneak into through a hole in the fence. It was one nasty tall second floor that felt more like a three story as we climbed. We couldn't afford to lose balls as had little money for another one. If you hit it up there, you went and got it. The only way to get it was to climb via a drain pipe and use the clamps for support to get you up there. Most of us fell on the way back down after we got the ball. Bruised chins, shins, knees, elbows and an occasional crack in the head but we lived. The beating we would give each other if we refused to go get the ball was worse.

for sure! Those were the days my friend and that hole in the fence was at my school for sure cuz it was me and a couple others who dug it out. I wish I had a nickel every time we had to climb a drain pipe or put a old rug over the jagged fences and drop down about 12 feet and twist an ankle. Too bad, you went over the fence because you hit it over there on a foul ball so you get regardless. If you don't come back with the ball, don't come back at all and then get your azz beat the next day for not getting the ball. Good times for sure!!

[jledou]

I work with someone that does dog rescue with her husband. She is picky about who she adopts to a point but mainly it is a ...well we want to play with the dog and give them attention versus hey lady I just want to beat the dog.

In all seriousness ... from her experience breed specific rescue groups tend to be over the top. Most people that do rescue groups also tend to believe that leaving dogs outside is inhuman. Not trying to say everyone is like that ... just 90% in my experiences.

Sorry to hear that you are having problems and hopefully it will all work out in the end.

[montecristo#2]

Originally Posted by jledou

In all seriousness ... from her experience breed specific rescue groups tend to be over the top. Most people that do rescue groups also tend to believe that leaving dogs outside is inhuman. Not trying to say everyone is like that ... just 90% in my experiences.

I could see this. My boss recently adopted a German Shepard from the German Shepard rescue and he said he had to fill out a ton of paperwork. The people came to inspect his house and said if he ever had a problem, he could call them and someone would be at his house in 20 minutes to pick up the dog. It sounded like he had to go through more hoops than adopting a child.

With that said, I can see both sides. I guess it all depends on the history of the dog. If the dog was neglected and left outside all day, it could be harmful to continue that behavior.

It is sad when it appears both sides have the best interest of the dog in mind and cannot agree on what is actually best for the dog.

I know when we went to get our puppy from breeders, we were seriously interviewed and a good portion of the breeders would not even consider us since we both work full-time. I don't blame them, for some of these people, dogs are more important than children.

[mhailey]

So here is the update, that i type as Jake (my dog) is snuggled upon the couch with his head on my lap, the fireplace blazing forth in all its glory, and Jake snorring as I type (I feel like such an abuser of this dog). I have surrended Ruby, the second dog we received from the rescue, and retained Jake, because she was nipping at my children. According to the rescue the nipping is all my fault because I did not train this dog (despite the fact that I have it sitting, staing and laying down to handsignals, and crating up when I simply stated "bed." That's not adequate training for 4 months i guess.

I have sent an e-mail to the board of directors of the rescue demanding verification of what provision of the contract allows access to my property, and they have failed to respond. I have reviewed the contract and there is no provision allowing this. I have stated, in no uncertain terms, that I will not allow any person from the rescue to step foot on my property without my prior notice, and my prior written consent. If they come to my house, I will sue each and every member of the board of directors for tresspass, as well as the rescue as an entity, and the person on who comes to the house in District court. That means that each member of the board, the entity itself and the "volunteer" who comes to the house will each be forced to hire an attorney at a minimum of $150 per hour. That alone wil put a serious crimp on their finances. I have already contacted the news stations for channels 2, 4, 7, 9, 31, and the local radio stations regarding this issue. I have also stated that if Jake ever "disappears" from my house I will pursue theft charges against each and every pesron involved with this resuce, as they would be part of a conspiracy for theft, and I will sue each and every person for conversion, negligent and intentional infliction of emotional distress.

I have truely lost all faith in the resuces of this area. I will keep you all updated.

Matt

[kzm007]

Give 'em hell!

All the best to you.

[Cigary]

Originally Posted by mhailey

So here is the update, that i type as Jake (my dog) is snuggled upon the couch with his head on my lap, the fireplace blazing forth in all its glory, and Jake snorring as I type (I feel like such an abuser of this dog). I have surrended Ruby, the second dog we received from the rescue, and retained Jake, because she was nipping at my children. According to the rescue the nipping is all my fault because I did not train this dog (despite the fact that I have it sitting, staing and laying down to handsignals, and crating up when I simply stated "bed." That's not adequate training for 4 months i guess.

I have sent an e-mail to the board of directors of the rescue demanding verification of what provision of the contract allows access to my property, and they have failed to respond. I have reviewed the contract and there is no provision allowing this. I have stated, in no uncertain terms, that I will not allow any person from the rescue to step foot on my property without my prior notice, and my prior written consent. If they come to my house, I will sue each and every member of the board of directors for tresspass, as well as the rescue as an entity, and the person on who comes to the house in District court. That means that each member of the board, the entity itself and the "volunteer" who comes to the house will each be forced to hire an attorney at a minimum of $150 per hour. That alone wil put a serious crimp on their finances. I have already contacted the news stations for channels 2, 4, 7, 9, 31, and the local radio stations regarding this issue. I have also stated that if Jake ever "disappears" from my house I will pursue theft charges against each and every pesron involved with this resuce, as they would be part of a conspiracy for theft, and I will sue each and every person for conversion, negligent and intentional infliction of emotional distress.

I have truely lost all faith in the resuces of this area. I will keep you all updated.

Matt

Sorry to hear that the Rescues in your area have been so messed up,,,there are still good places out there but as with anything,,,,caveat emptor with places that don't have a good background. Check out everything about a place you are interested in doing business with,,,even banks.

[tfar]

I'm on a fence on this one. I am the biggest dog lover you could possibly imagine. My mother back in Germany still has the dog I picked and raised, a Dalmatian. We leave her alone only on very rare occasions. You certainly know that dogs, while they are animals, are by no means wild animals any longer. They have over hundreds of years taken on traits of human companionship. Or you could say that this is actually not the case and that dogs still are very much in their dog behavior and having dog needs. Any which way you turn it, there are cases of separation anxiety with a lot of dogs. It comes out as destructive behavior, as escaping, as nipping or aggressive behavior.

Usually this stuff can be dealt with fairly quickly by changing the situation and by training, say within a matter of months, unless there is a pre-existing history of abuse where the dog has become so badly traumatized that the damage might be irreversible or take longer to heal.

The reason I don't own a dog now is that I find it quite cruel to leave a dog alone for longer than 3-4 hours on a regular basis. Until I reach that situation I will not get a dog even if I would like nothing more.

Some dog psychologists say that when you leave a dog for several hours the dog doesn't know you will be back and thinks you left it for good, which obviously causes stress and anxiety. Whether that is true for all dogs, who knows? But for some it certainly is.

If I try to put myself in the position of the rescue people, I see a person who does leave their dog alone longer than what would be desirable. The dog also displays somewhat aggressive behavior towards the youngest in the pack. So this makes you somebody who would rather get rid of the dog instead of investing time in sorting out the problem. Stay, sit, come are very elementary things. It takes much more time and effort to make the dog a viable companion and family member. But apparently this person doesn't have the time because the dog is left alone for quite a long time and quite often and regularly. Or the person doesn't have the knowledge or desire to work with the dog. Now the dog rescue folks care for their dogs more than for the owners of those dogs. That's the nature of their business. So instead of taking you by the hand and explaining you what to do to keep the dog, they take it back, which is what you asked them to do in the first place.

Your reaction to them seems certainly like over-reacting, bitching and narcissistic or at least self-centered. Not necessarily great qualities for a dog owner. So they probably are glad they got Ruby back and they have quite certainly no means to take Jake away.

So while I understand your pain for losing a dog and for being treated like this, and not knowing all the circumstances, I think I would side with the rescue folks here.

Smoke a cigar and relax. And maybe think about the fact that Jake is alone now and that this is even harder for him to be left alone for so long. So the question comes up whether you should just actually get another dog so Jake is not alone and hope that dog has a better disposition, or whether it makes sense to give Jake away, too, so you can concentrate on your jobs without a bad conscience for leaving the dogs alone and nobody that can reproach you with neglect while at the same time knowing your kids are safe and saving tons of money. The rational option would probably be the latter. But, alas, dogs are not a rational thing.

Till

[jledou]

Yes, according to the "experts" anything that a dog does is our fault not the fault of the lower intellegent animal

Best of luck with Jake, hopefully everything will be uneventful.