I am a bit disappointed in some people here

[ashauler]

Originally Posted by Shelby07

Jamie - Don't get me wrong... I'm certainly not putting the way this board operates down. Quite honestly, we've all been on other boards that treat newcomers like a piece of dirt after the first faux pas. One is just as bad (or good, depending on your point of view) as the other. No matter what those on different boards say (it sure does seem like they worry an awful lot about us,) they have had the same problems and have gotten just as frustrated; the difference is how the problems are handled. This place is evolving and over time it will figure out how to handle these issues in a way that is conducive to the way this board operates. The fact that this board has between 300-350 members logging in every day and is attracting people from the industry where "smarter" boards have been unable to do so has to count for something. Those are real metrics, not just bloviated opinions. You have spoken to me and you know me. I am tolerant to a point, but I am also kind of a no-nonsense person. People need to do what they commit to.

Don't get too wrapped up by criticisms being tossed around on other boards. They are not our problem, and we (contrary to what some apparently believe) are not theirs. I think we can still welcome people and treat them with respect, but the idea that they get the same amount of trust as someone else who has been here a while is something that needs to be clarified. Showing respect and giving trust are two different things. And, the more I have thought about this, the more I realize that these issues do need to be talked about, but not in a destructive and hateful manner.

I know a lot of people are concerned with what is being said on other boards, and it's the reason I kind of went off on a tangent here. The person who disappointed and surprised me the most is someone who has been around longer than I have and is a genuinely nice guy. I would have never had any reason to question him before this, so the whole "open arms" thing doesn't really apply in this case. On one hand I am very concerned about him because it is so out of character. On the other hand, he has logged in several times since this whole thing started to come down and has ignored attempts to be contacted by me and others. I can't understand for the life of me why he wouldn't just send me a one line PM or make a phone call to someone and let us know he's still there. That's the part that really upsets me.

You bet we've talked Mark, and I value every coversation we have had, either by phone or in PM and I consider you to be a friend. I in no way felt that you were putting down CL, or its culture. Nor am I....either here nor on other boards. I don't see references to CL on the boards I frequent any more. Perhaps I don't see those particular threads, but no matter, I don't think other boards comments are near as prevalent as they once were.

Unless I am completely off target (and please let me know if I am), I think we see things generally the same.......perhaps I am a bit less tolerant than you are, but we are certainly not polar opposites by any means. I don't condone the unjustified harrassment of newbies or anyone for that matter. But, there are times when "tough" posts must be made.....and I simply believe that in the open is where they need to be made, in plain view for all to see and make their own judgements.

Frankly, I am mystified that whether or not to "out" the transgressors in this instance is even being debated......it appears that you have given ample opportunity for explanations and reparitions.....all to no avail. It may sound cliche', but when questionable traders or out and out "scumbaggery" is dealt with exclusively behind closed doors and members who abuse the trust of the board are NOT outed and dealt with quickly and with no room for ambiguity and in public....the very integrity of the board is at risk.

There maybe reasons the members couldn't send on time.....but I know of NO reason to justify the ignoring of Pm's directly asking for the issue to be addressed or for peeking the board and not responding.

[zion698]

This is surely a sad state of affairs. However, I feel Stogie, the moderators and the CL family are such a high quality BOTL and SOTL ... that these scammers seem to get weeded out pretty quickly. In the time I've been a member I have met some incredible people. I just don't want to loose the openess we have here with too many security measures. If that makes any sense. Most of you have been here longer than I have so take this for what it is. When it's all said and done CL is the only forum for me. I will follow where ever Stogie and the senior members led. Lets keep it going and weed out those that would tarnish what we have built.

[tobacmon]

Originally Posted by BigBuddha76

we gotta get together sometime...considering you're only an hour away

We can do this for sure ---I am trying to get to the herf in March--will know what my schedule is at end of month---fingers crossed!

[Itsme-Speedy-G]

I want to take a little different approach.

If someone does not live up to their end of a deal, pass, trade, contest, and or any such commitment, the Mods need to handle it behind closed doors. Don't get me wrong, if a guy/girl is a skunk, they don’t need to be on our board. I do appreciate that you did not out them publicly but look at this thread. I just don't want this board, my third home, to turn on its self and implode.

[htown]

I know personally that I do not expect ya'll to trust me until I've been here awhile and earned it through completed passes etc. I do believe that there are more people with integrity than without. I also am unwilling to send out anything in the mail I can't do without if it is lost or stolen or scammed.

[Rowdymon-cl]

Originally Posted by Itsme-Speedy-G

I want to take a little different approach.

If someone does not live up to their end of a deal, pass, trade, contest, and or any such commitment, the Mods need to handle it behind closed doors. Don't get me wrong, if a guy/girl is a skunk, they don’t need to be on our board. I do appreciate that you did not out them publicly but look at this thread. I just don't want this board, my third home, to turn on its self and implode.

I agree in part with what you are saying...and let me explain the differences. Let me start by saying I've run some message boards in the past, and been a moderator on more than I can count...so this is the avenue I'm approaching that idea from.

Stogie and the mods have their hands full. Moderators get no compensation for what they do, simply as a service to the community. So piling on more work, when their plates are already full is a tough thing to pull off.

IF they pull all complaints behind closed doors, they are going to need to add in at least one new Moderator, lets call him the Arbiter for now...but understand that's not a position to be taken lightly.

First with the responsibilities, which I can only imagine would be to keep up with the bad apple list, but playing the part of investigator, negotiator and everything else that comes along...wow, what a job...especially considering how time sensitive some of that information will be needed.

So sure, in a perfect world we wouldn't need dispute resolution, in an almost perfect world something like that wouldn't be needed often...but it's hard to put that kind of responsibility on someone's shoulders, and having the board owner, in this case Stogie, take on the liability of putting a person (or people) in that kind of a position.

[jitzy]

First I need to say like Mark thank you to all those who have pm'ed us with offers to send out the cigars for this it just goes to show the value of everyone here as a whole you guys are true B/SOTL and for that I thank you. As far as outing the person I dont think thats something that I would like to do at this point because he has been such a active member on here and I truly hope he is just going thru some personal issues and not ducking the board for any particular reason mark and I are gonna give it a couple more days than he and I will take care of the missing smokes. as far as the rating system goes I think its a good idea however I used to use the member awards to judge people and if you go by that the member in question has 30 awards so no one would have couse to doubt him it would be like some one with a rep of 6 bailing on it.

[Shelby07]

I have just received a PM from one of the people in question. Apparantly he was on vacation and didn't get the PM's. His sticks will go out in a day or 2.

Rules and expectations for any event that is hosted here need to be read and understood BEFORE entering. The rules here clearly set out the expectations of those who were to be part of the pool. A PM stating that a vacation was planned and a delay should be expected would have been appropriate here.

[cybervee-cl]

Originally Posted by Shelby07

Rules and expectations for any event that is hosted here need to be read and understood BEFORE entering. The rules here clearly set out the expectations of those who were to be part of the pool. A PM stating that a vacation was planned and a delay should be expected would have been appropriate here.

Isn't that the whole idea behind the rules - understand them before you 'sign up'? :huh: :errrr:

Hopefully the other 'problems' will also straighten themselves out.

[NullSmurf-cl]

There are boards out there where trades and group buys are safe, where contests get paid out, you can actually trust the vendors, and men speak in the first person. For most, it seems you have a good thing here. Some, however, lack honesty and integrety. So long as you tolerate that, you will have guys who "just forgot" to ship that prize package, who go on vacation before shipping his end, or blatently disappear with $800 worth of cigars.

Oh, and as Joe has noticed, all this chest bling is, well, chest bling.

[Dickson-cl]

Mark,

The reason I didn't get involved in the SB pool was the way the payouts were being handled. In the past on other boards. I've played. I sent my end to whomever was running the pool and they made the payouts. I to have held up shipments for whatever reasons but, they always go out.

It is so easy to be taken, the way the SB pool was setup. Please don't take this negatively. Just a thought for the future. Some of us have been burned....from that we learn. But, to give up because someone felt that they weren't obligated. Speaks little of the person.



As for what others say about CLive...screw them. This board is by far one of the best that I frequent although, I do see small cliques starting that can turn people off. All boards have personalities that are made up by the the entire membership. I have yet to see the bashing go on here that I watch take place on other boards. Keyboard tough guys that when presented with the person in their immediate space, have nothing negative to say because, all of a sudden it is such a waste of time.

Stogie keep up the good work!!!! You've done very well brother............I hope all gets better with the Blackberry debacle soon.

[g8trbone]

Originally Posted by NullSmurf

There are boards out there where trades and group buys are safe, where contests get paid out, you can actually trust the vendors, and men speak in the first person. For most, it seems you have a good thing here. Some, however, lack honesty and integrety. So long as you tolerate that, you will have guys who "just forgot" to ship that prize package, who go on vacation before shipping his end, or blatently disappear with $800 worth of cigars.

Oh, and as Joe has noticed, all this chest bling is, well, chest bling.

Bruce, no board is completely safe and to think that there are boards where there are no members who will try to take advantage of someone is completely naive. Yes, CigarLive has had things like this happen and unfortunately, it does turn people off to participating. However, if we all take a more responsible role in who we deal with it will help alleviate some of these problems. Now, the problem that lies there is that if we don't show a little bit of trust in a new member, we won't be able to welcome new members without them feeling completely put off. That is one of the issues I see in a lot of boards. What Dickson has said about cliques is the hardest thing to keep to a minimum but they happen. CigarLive is meant to be as welcoming a place as possible, and unfortunately, that does welcome more mooches and leeches into the mix. There is no way to completely keep that from happening except for vigilence on every individual's part. Make sure you have active and open conversation with persons interested in trading/deals and have some other contact other than on the board itself. No one likes being taken advantage of but it will eventually happen... all you can do is try to limit your risks.

[Shelby07]

Posted in the superbowl thread...

At this point it looks like all but one person has contacted their recipients and has their cigars on the way. Woodson had 2 boxes (8 cigars) and has not logged on for a week now. If there is no word from him by Monday I will send out the 8 remaining cigars to Howland1998 and we can get this wrapped up.

Status Link

Bruce - I think that every board has people join up who may be less that honorable. It takes a little time to weed them out, but eventually they show up. I think if anyone tells you that any board out there has never had anyone skunked they are either lying or having a convenient lapse of memory. CL is learning as it goes on and I agree that there are some policies that will have to change as it grows. As TJ said, no board will ever be 100%.

Dickson - Thanks for the suggestion. In something like this you are probably right. And I do agree with you... this is still the best board around.

[Ceedee]

Originally Posted by NullSmurf

There are boards out there where trades and group buys are safe, where contests get paid out, you can actually trust the vendors, and men speak in the first person. For most, it seems you have a good thing here. Some, however, lack honesty and integrety. So long as you tolerate that, you will have guys who "just forgot" to ship that prize package, who go on vacation before shipping his end, or blatently disappear with $800 worth of cigars.

Oh, and as Joe has noticed, all this chest bling is, well, chest bling.

Bruce, I have a couple of comments. First, you are correct, in your statement about integrity - some people lack it. There will be honest people and dishonest people on every board, I would argue though. The issues we have had of late are NOT however, specific to CigarLive completely. If anyone can name one cigar board where issues have not occurred that were poor or distasteful, then let them step forward. There is a reason that places like "the scumbag list" exist. It is due to past experiences others have had with poor individuals... over time, the boards and the people involved with them LEARN from their mistakes and ferret out the chaff from the wheat, so to speak. We are in the process of doing that here, being the young board that we are, it will take some time.

I think, no, I know for a fact, that NO ONE here at CigarLive has any disillusions of what the issues are we have to deal with. Because we are more "open" let's say than some other cigar boards, this means we will always be a bit more open to some foolishness than perhaps other places. I think however, that the people here will be a bit more cautious in their dealings and that with specific regard to trades/pifs/purchases etc, more structure will be required of those individuals. In the end however, things do come right down to just that - individuals. People and their own "common sense". I won't get into a full discussion on that subject now (thank God, you are saying)... I can say that CigarLive has some top-notch individuals here that I have found to be the salt of the earth. It is what keeps me here and not at other places. That is the attraction of this place and that is what makes it strong. The fools and pretenders that have come through this place - the ones that think they are invisible (pretty funny really) are in for a rude awakening in due time.

Lastly, again, I do appreciate what you had to say Bruce. I can speak for myself here in admitting that I don't "know it all" and I know that almost every person here feels similarly. I am always open to suggestions, differing points of view and criticism. If other members here have issues to point out and points to be made, they are always open to do so, without being derided or getting "reamed" for it, regardless of what some people have said. That is a definite strength here I would say.

CD

[g8trbone]

Very well said Chris... I completely agree. I am open to any and all comments/criticism, as long as it is that and not an attack. I think we have a great group of people here that are very trustworthy. It is that group of people who make CigarLive what it is!