I am a bit disappointed in some people here

[cigarsarge-cl]

Originally Posted by Ceedee

Bruce, I have a couple of comments. First, you are correct, in your statement about integrity - some people lack it. There will be honest people and dishonest people on every board, I would argue though. The issues we have had of late are NOT however, specific to CigarLive completely. If anyone can name one cigar board where issues have not occurred that were poor or distasteful, then let them step forward. There is a reason that places like "the scumbag list" exist. It is due to past experiences others have had with poor individuals... over time, the boards and the people involved with them LEARN from their mistakes and ferret out the chaff from the wheat, so to speak. We are in the process of doing that here, being the young board that we are, it will take some time.

I think, no, I know for a fact, that NO ONE here at CigarLive has any disillusions of what the issues are we have to deal with. Because we are more "open" let's say than some other cigar boards, this means we will always be a bit more open to some foolishness than perhaps other places. I think however, that the people here will be a bit more cautious in their dealings and that with specific regard to trades/pifs/purchases etc, more structure will be required of those individuals. In the end however, things do come right down to just that - individuals. People and their own "common sense". I won't get into a full discussion on that subject now (thank God, you are saying)... I can say that CigarLive has some top-notch individuals here that I have found to be the salt of the earth. It is what keeps me here and not at other places. That is the attraction of this place and that is what makes it strong. The fools and pretenders that have come through this place - the ones that think they are invisible (pretty funny really) are in for a rude awakening in due time.

Lastly, again, I do appreciate what you had to say Bruce. I can speak for myself here in admitting that I don't "know it all" and I know that almost every person here feels similarly. I am always open to suggestions, differing points of view and criticism. If other members here have issues to point out and points to be made, they are always open to do so, without being derided or getting "reamed" for it, regardless of what some people have said. That is a definite strength here I would say.

CD

The problem here is Chris that the general membership cannot openly challenge scammers. That leaves the door wide open for them to come in. Obviously the moderation can't keep track of all of them...Look at all the stuff that has gone in the recent past. That very issue as well as a few others has kept me from posting and offering my input here.

Another problem I have is concerns the Buy, Sell, Trade section. Rule #10 states you may not publically question prices. That rule also encourages scammers to drop by. It's pretty east for a new guy to get ripped a new one before anything is said. A bad deal can be made pretty easily is no one is minding the store for gouging. I don't think that is the atmosphere that was initally invisioned for Cigar Live...But it now exists.

I know Stogie wants to keep the place user friendly to encourage cigar companies to participate here...But my question is with all that has gone on with passes being ripped off and deals gone sour...Will they want to remain? Is the present atmosphere going to encourage them to particiapte.

I think more trust should be placed in the hands of the general membership. Outing a rat should not be frowned upon. Take 50dean for instance. He came here and began to make a profit off his clocks. IMHO that is not what a brotherhood of cigar smokers is about. I had problems with what he was doing...As well as several others I know of. I really could not publically state what I thought about that. He then showed what he was all about when he stole a pass. That is just one incident where something could have been headed off if the general membership

Some serious thought needs to be put into where this board wants to head. Reputation is everything. What reputation will this board have? I think that will be decided soon.

There is no better watchdog than the members that have seen things go bad. I hope there comes a time when they can speak openly without censorship when things seem to be going in the wrong direction.

[LkyLindy]

Boys-
There are some very good and wise posts on this thread-Unfortunately, I have belonged to many boards dealing with different matters and eventually the same situations arise.
On a fishing board we had issues with tackle not being paid for,trips not be cancelled and someone left holding the bag,conflict of interest rip offs etc. etc. etc
What it comes down to is the integrity of individuals and as we know ,some people have NO integrity-Its just a long weed out process that evolves with every discussion group as the membership grows--I guess in this day and age remember-scam me once shame on you--scam me twice ,shame on me

[cigarsarge-cl]

Originally Posted by LkyLindy

Boys-
There are some very good and wise posts on this thread-Unfortunately, I have belonged to many boards dealing with different matters and eventually the same situations arise.
On a fishing board we had issues with tackle not being paid for,trips not be cancelled and someone left holding the bag,conflict of interest rip offs etc. etc. etc
What it comes down to is the integrity of individuals and as we know ,some people have NO integrity-Its just a long weed out process that evolves with every discussion group as the membership grows--I guess in this day and age remember-scam me once shame on you--scam me twice ,shame on me

You are quite correct. My point is this board should not offer a safe harbor to scammers by being politically correct to the point people are not allowed to voice an opinion about a situation that does concern them and the validity of the board in general.

Granted all internet boards have some things happen for the bad. This board has been in existance for about a year. I've seen several years worth of things here during that time. I feel some could have been prevented if things of a bad nature were delt with differently...Giving more trust to people that might smell a rat.

[poriggity-cl]

That's rough. I understand there were rules, and they need to be followed. If for some reason the person could not get it out in a week, he/she needs to PM the winner and explain. Most people here are pretty laid back, and would be fine with it if they didn't get their winnings right away, as long as there was an explanation.

[Ceedee]

Originally Posted by cigarsarge

The problem here is Chris that the general membership cannot openly challenge scammers. That leaves the door wide open for them to come in. Obviously the moderation can't keep track of all of them...Look at all the stuff that has gone in the recent past. That very issue as well as a few others has kept me from posting and offering my input here.

Well I do have to disagree with you on this point Sarge. Actually, the whole issue with smokinj and PAM64/Gurkha/blah, blah/ was one that David knew was a risky issue. I specifically spoke to him about his trade being HIGHLY risky and I advised him, as did others, not to do the trade. He decided even against his own better judgment, to go ahead and take the risk. Well, it backfired. PAM64 was publicly outed by him and the board. That is something we decided was right to do and all were in agreement. This is one way in which the board mods and members all acted to assist with the process of getting rid of the fraud. With regard to Shelby07's original post here in this thread, I agree with him and am as frustrated at some people as he is. Point is, we are taking some steps to make things better as Mark stated.

Originally Posted by cigarsarge

Another problem I have is concerns the Buy, Sell, Trade section. Rule #10 states you may not publically question prices. That rule also encourages scammers to drop by. It's pretty east for a new guy to get ripped a new one before anything is said. A bad deal can be made pretty easily is no one is minding the store for gouging. I don't think that is the atmosphere that was initally invisioned for Cigar Live...But it now exists.

One thing that is a give and take, is the issue of flame wars, piss-fests and righteous free speech. It's a constant battle in figuring out what the proper balance is. I think that in fact, things have gotten a lot better of late with regard to this point and a lot has to do with the input of the board members. Currently, we have not had issues of "gouging" when it comes to trades or sales. Members have been forthright in their comments and flamewars have not been present. I can tell you one thing tough that will NOT exist here no matter what - that is, the FOG/NOOB mentality and caste system. Simply not gonna happen. So damn many boards have this FOG/holier-than-thou attitude that runs rampant and keeps otherwise well-meaning newer cigar smokers, out of participation. That is simply not happening. So, if it means we are a bit more "Free" with folks to start with, so be it. The VAST majority of people here on CL know the difference between right and wrong and act like gentlemen and ladies accordingly. The rules for sales and trade btw, are always open to debate and you may see some changes soon.

Originally Posted by cigarsarge

I know Stogie wants to keep the place user friendly to encourage cigar companies to participate here...But my question is with all that has gone on with passes being ripped off and deals gone sour...Will they want to remain? Is the present atmosphere going to encourage them to particiapte.

Well, I dealt with what I think you were saying about deals going sour with my first remark, so I will comment on the passes you mentioned, here. I say that passes specifically are the responsibility of the pass supervisor/organizer to conduct. Use your head. If you feel like someone new is not warranted to be in your pass POLITELY EXCUSE THEM! We are going through a system of reputation now and trying to work out the kinks. That will help. However, again, if you are running a pass/pif etc, CHECK OUT THE PEOPLE ASKING TO PARTICIPATE. Do a bit of research. If you feel uncomfortable about someone, ask around and ask for opinions. Nuff said.

Originally Posted by cigarsarge

I think more trust should be placed in the hands of the general membership. Outing a rat should not be frowned upon. Take 50dean for instance. He came here and began to make a profit off his clocks. IMHO that is not what a brotherhood of cigar smokers is about. I had problems with what he was doing...As well as several others I know of. I really could not publically state what I thought about that. He then showed what he was all about when he stole a pass. That is just one incident where something could have been headed off if the general membership

I think that this board and the members are very much trusted by Daniel and all the mods as well as between ourselves as members. Point is, we are all still working together. CigarLive will be always an INCLUSIVE board vs. one that is EXCLUSIVE. We will balance our openness with vigilance. The issue you mentioned with regard to 50dean is an old one and one we have learned from. Not forgotten, but left in the past as a learning experience. Again, flamewars and bitchfests are not ever gonna be condoned. Righteous discussion will be allowed as long as people stay on target with their comments and not get into personal bullcrap bleeding over from other boards and other relationships outside of CigarLive. That is all I have to say on that point.

Originally Posted by cigarsarge

Some serious thought needs to be put into where this board wants to head. Reputation is everything. What reputation will this board have? I think that will be decided soon.

There is no better watchdog than the members that have seen things go bad. I hope there comes a time when they can speak openly without censorship when things seem to be going in the wrong direction.

Agreed. And, I must say that serious thought is ALWAYS happening about how things are running here on CL. I know that you have not been around recently as much as you were here in the past Sarge, so I will say to you that the members here have been extremely vigilant and supportive of and for the board - more so in the last few months. Things are not perfect nor will they ever be. But I can say with complete candor that things are moving in the right direction. It is an interesting and eventful time for the board and I am excited to see how it is progressing, Kinks and bullcrap aside.

Respectfully,

CD

[Architeuthis]

I must say that Squid® hasn't seen a thread on CigarLive that was this well thought out, where each post gives food for thought, and all arguments are politely reasoned and extremely honest; in a long time... It's good to get this all out in public, where we may be able to determine a method to resolve these situations.

Thanks to everybody who posted here so far, and keep it up!

[jam]

I just wanted to say thanks to the moderators in cigar live there is never enough security and i know that a forum this size takes alot of work it a shame that a few cant obied by the laws and ruin for the others

[happy1]

If they don't honor the rules,put them on a black list

[Sea Jay]

Originally Posted by architeuthis

I must say that Squid® hasn't seen a thread on CigarLive that was this well thought out, where each post gives food for thought, and all arguments are politely reasoned and extremely honest; in a long time... It's good to get this all out in public, where we may be able to determine a method to resolve these situations.

Thanks to everybody who posted here so far, and keep it up!

I second this! I appreciate all of the mature and gentleman-like conversation here. This thread goes to show how great the people are here even in a tough scenario like this one.

I am not going to let a couple of bad apples spoil my fun here!

[patefengreen]

I know this thread originated over problems in payouts for the SB thread. Yes, all the stars needed to align for it to go without a hitch, but I think we had a good core of members participating and the suggestion to mail sticks to the coordinators and then have them mail out the winnings really seemed like overkill to me (and twice the money to the USPS). So for simplicity's sake, the cigars were to be mailed only once from the participants to the winner. Pretty simple. Unfortunately, there were a couple of apparent meltdowns which have caused undue stress for the contest originators.

I think the bottom line, here on the forum, is to keep your wits about you in all your dealings. Make sure you do your homework. Know the member you are dealing with and if you decide to go ahead with a trade, bomb, whatever against your better judgement (or warnings from others) then so be it. It's your prerogative to do what you want. But then don't come crying about being left holding the bag. I know I see some "odd" things from time to time, but I just remember the username and make a mental note to keep my distance and not get involved. The way I see it, there's an unusually high percentage of members here who are 110 percent "good upstanding folk" comprising such a large pool of targets for bombs, etc that I will never be able exhaust anyway. Therefore, I don't need to concern myself with any "unknown" commodity. If I choose to bomb a new guy who then disappears from the board, well that's my choice (my cigars, my choice). I know we've seen a lot of retaliation bombs of late which is great and makes this place fun. But the defination of a bomb is a gift. Once you send it, that's it. It's common courtesy for the recipient to respond with a thank you, but essentially the deal is done!

Okay, my rant is over. Unfortunately, threads like these remind us that we simply need to treat each other with the same respect that we would expect towards ourselves.

[nhcigarfan-cl]

Sarge is correct on all points.

[Dickson-cl]

Originally Posted by nhcigarfan

Sarge is correct on all points.

I thought the same thing while I was reading it. Started to post then backed off.

The one bad thing is watching the wolves attack a wounded animal aka FOG's attacking Noobs en mass and finding it amusing.

[nhcigarfan-cl]

I agree. But you need to keep an eye on who is going after them and why. Usually the FOG is on the right track.

[Dickson-cl]

I see no problem with "a" FOG going after someone. Hell, I've been called out once.

I have alot of respect for many of them. It's when all the others jump in and find it amusing. ie; get the popcorn, this is going to be fun. They do nothing but, instigate and carry the thread where it need not go. It's just not right.

Done constructively, it would be a good thing. We are supposed to be here to help, teach and learn from one another. Not tear someone down or chase them away because they made a mistake. Blatant or otherwise.

[Da Klugs]

Hard thing to do right. Keeping a board friendly by avoiding it becoming a home for the packs of folks who like to run around internet boards bashing folks needs to be balanced with the need to prevent members from being scammed by serial board scammers.

There is a feature of Vbulletin ... User reporting of posts, that might be a good option to activate here. You can keep the tone right in the threads, but allows any member to "report" a post to a moderation que for review. As boards grow, it's difficult for moderation teams to keep up with every little issue. And have found that this can be a handy tool to use as an early warning system before a thread or situation gets out of hand. It's topical, private, involves members in the process, and results in creating the.. better look at this pile for a busy mod team.

Edit: I'm a dufus. (Just saw the X)

Soo...

Contests involving others sending things? Problems are normally created by the contest host not setting the rules for participation or engagement in a conservative way. For example: Must have xxx days memership and yy trades. Or to be super conservative.. must send prize in advance to host before the drawing/ contest completion.