Michael Moore Making Sense...

[cigar no baka]

Originally Posted by bhudson57

Man, I couldn't have put it better myself. I think if you address these two MAJOR problems, it would address 99% of the problems we face now with healthcare.

Matt stop making sense you are messing up the fun of arguiing.

[davemo]

US Health Care not as bad as its made out to be.

[brownbuffalo]

I'm not interested in debating whether or not Michael Moore gets "facts" straight, whether I agree/disagree with his politics, etc.

I do think, however, that if you disagree with statements/arguments/assertions, you tend to discredit them, by any means.
Like anything else, I think his documentaries should be taken with a grain of salt.

Also, I think it is naive not to see that the medical industry, and I did say industry, not system, is riddled with corporate money and interest, and often overlooks those it is meant to look out for.

Finally, I find it interesting that universal healthcare can easily become "socialized" healthcare, yet I don't see current retirees, or future retirees calling social security, "socialized government aid," or public education products, parents of students, etc. calling it "socialized education." Personally, inflammatory words like "socialized" don't mean jack to me, I just find funny that to some, they are.

That being said, I appreciate Moore's critical view on the state of medical care in the United Sates.

[Blueface]

Originally Posted by brownbuffalo

Finally, I find it interesting that universal healthcare can easily become "socialized" healthcare, yet I don't see current retirees, or future retirees calling social security, "socialized government aid," or public education products, parents of students, etc. calling it "socialized education." Personally, inflammatory words like "socialized" don't mean jack to me, I just find funny that to some, they are.

Interesting point.

I personally don't see education and Social Security as "Socialized" government.
The supposed benefit of "Socialized" is that it is free and available to all.
My kids went to both private and public schools in their lifetime. Neither was "free". I paid for both. Public school was paid via my property taxes for both my children and for those children whose parents did not own a home to be taxed. Furthermore, I had a choice of many private schools if I was not interested in the "public" one. The option was there for me.

Same goes for SS. I pay for it. It is not free. I have paid deerly for it since I was 16 and am now 48. Can't collect on it until I am 65, I believe 67 for full amount, so odds are I may be long dead before I can recover any great portion of what I have put in.

[Papichulo]

Originally Posted by Blueface

Interesting point.

I personally don't see education and Social Security as "Socialized" government.
The supposed benefit of "Socialized" is that it is free and available to all.
My kids went to both private and public schools in their lifetime. Neither was "free". I paid for both. Public school was paid via my property taxes for both my children and for those children whose parents did not own a home to be taxed. Furthermore, I had a choice of many private schools if I was not interested in the "public" one. The option was there for me.

Same goes for SS. I pay for it. It is not free. I have paid deerly for it since I was 16 and am now 48. Can't collect on it until I am 65, I believe 67 for full amount, so odds are I may be long dead before I can recover any great portion of what I have put in.

Good point Carlos! In TX you pay out the for taxes that cover your tuition... SS will continue to grow at a very slow rate....

[ChurchDog]

I think "socialized education" is a perfect name for the modern compulsory public school system. It's also a perfect example of how government involvement can ruin something.

[Corona Gigante]

Originally Posted by brownbuffalo

Finally, I find it interesting that universal healthcare can easily become "socialized" healthcare, yet I don't see current retirees, or future retirees calling social security, "socialized government aid," or public education products, parents of students, etc. calling it "socialized education." Personally, inflammatory words like "socialized" don't mean jack to me, I just find funny that to some, they are.

Let's not forget the "socialized" armed forces, police, fire fighters, post office, etc, etc.

Nobody ever suggested that government funded health care would be free. In the UK, the national health service is funded by payroll deductions, just like social security is in this country.

[macjoe53]

Michael Moore is a willing tool of the Socialist Democratic Party. In other words a communist bent on destroying all that makes this country great.

[brownbuffalo]

Originally Posted by macjoe53

Michael Moore is a willing tool of the Socialist Democratic Party. In other words a communist bent on destroying all that makes this country great.

No offense, but I hear all these buzz words, like "Socialist Democratic Party," and "communist," and "destroying what makes this country great," but I don't hear specifics.

Interesting what other folks said, though. I think y'all understood what I mean. All countries that provide these services, charge higher taxes. In fact, all those taxes that we're all paying right now, pay for public school education, including institutions of higher education, our future social security (if it isn't broken up and disbanded), welfare programs, farmer stipends, etc. My point being, that I don't see all these people who are fed up with "socialized education," "socialized social security," etc. In other words, we would all pay more taxes to have universal/"socialized" health care.

Again, I just think its interesting the way things are "worded," and the reactions those words get. I'm gonna have to call one of my best friends, who's an Ed.D, see what he thingk.
LOL

[Mister Moo]

Originally Posted by DriftyGypsy

Michael Moore makes Propaganda films and calls them documentaries.

... while our government slips out trial balloon "leaks" and makes propaganda speeches and calls them truth.

It's hard to tell one from the other as an indigent I know has suddenly fallen into "the doughnut hole". I'd say MM's quality of horsehockey is equal to what the past five administrations have churned out.

[Blueface]

Originally Posted by Corona Gigante

Nobody ever suggested that government funded health care would be free. In the UK, the national health service is funded by payroll deductions, just like social security is in this country.

Nicholas,
Sorry but couldn't help chuckle at this oxymoron.

Government funded health care not free.

Why have it then?
Why the push for it if is not free? (p.s. I am not shocked by this as I knew that already....just seems many don't)
Why should I pay for someone's healthcare who doesn't work or contribute to it?
Why should I contribute my hard earned dollars to pay for someone who elects to benefit out of other social services such as welfare?
Why shouldn't I be free to choose who insures me and where it is my money goes to?
Why do I need someone who knows nothing about this (government can be inserted in here) to do it for me?
Why the need to make us all equal?
I love inequality.
Makes those with less strive for more.
Makes those with more, strive for even more.

[macjoe53]

Originally Posted by brownbuffalo

No offense, but I hear all these buzz words, like "Socialist Democratic Party," and "communist," and "destroying what makes this country great," but I don't hear specifics.

Interesting what other folks said, though. I think y'all understood what I mean. All countries that provide these services, charge higher taxes. In fact, all those taxes that we're all paying right now, pay for public school education, including institutions of higher education, our future social security (if it isn't broken up and disbanded), welfare programs, farmer stipends, etc. My point being, that I don't see all these people who are fed up with "socialized education," "socialized social security," etc. In other words, we would all pay more taxes to have universal/"socialized" health care.

Again, I just think its interesting the way things are "worded," and the reactions those words get. I'm gonna have to call one of my best friends, who's an Ed.D, see what he thingk.
LOL

I am an American citizen who voluntarily served this country over 21 years. I therefore feel that I am entitled to my opinion, just as you are and just as Michael Moore is. I do not dispute that he has a right, as an American citizen, to espouse his beliefs or to even make money off of opinions. Also, "Socialist Democratic Party" and "Communist" are not buzzwords. They are two separate but distinct political belief systems which IMHO are the direct opposite of the representative form of government which we currently have. Yes, we pay taxes to fund our public school system - which isn't so hot when compared to other industrialized nations. Yes, we have social security - which all working Americans pay into. And yes, there are many things with our government which need fixing.

I disagree with Michael Moores methods though. His documentaries are not completely honest (and I know the current administration is not completely honest either. For that matter both political parties are excellent at spin doctoring and false and misleading statements.) Call me a cynic but I believe Michael Moore makes his documentaries to make money.

I am also glad that you have polled everyone and know that everyone is in favor of paying higher taxes for universal/socialized health care. I guess you're in favor of the high tax increases on cigars.

If you would have asked me I would have said "No to higher taxes."