Michael Moore Making Sense...

[Junior]

Originally Posted by SteveDMatt

Do you believe this is a problem created by the insurance companies or the health care system?

There are many problems with the health care system. I don't believe there can be one easy fix.

I personally think they are both at fault. I will probably take some heat for this one, but I think the hospitals should be able to refer the people with a cold or minor non threatening illness to be referred to an urgent clinic. I personally think it is a taking the time of the Doctors away from someone else who needs it more.

For an example when my son was born my wife had to be transported 60 miles to Vanderbilt University where he was born 4 days later. My son spent 6 weeks in the NICU there and then 2 weeks in a local hospital. I like to call him my million dollar baby, but when I figured it out the medical bills added up to somewhere in the 450k range. We only had to pay in the range of $5000 (when we had a max out of pocket of $1500). The reason I went trough that was to get to this. On the day my son was born my mother in law fainted as my wife was being returned to her room after surgery. They took her to the emergency room and when all said and done her treatment added up to somewhere in the $5000 range. We paid our entire bill as we could, but my mother in law was able to fill out a form stating she was unable to pay and had her bill wiped clean. It irked my to say the least I had just taken 2 months off from work,(I had to have surgery the week before he was born) and back to work busting my a$$ and all she had to do was fill out a form. Oh and by the way she was fine nothing was found in the test.

[icehog3]

Originally Posted by adsantos13

Of course, as long as you combine the insults with your refutation of argument

Fair enough!

[maddman]

This is response to Bowling for Columbine

Numbers for 2005

United State Statistics Population 296,410,404
Murder 16,692
Violent Crime 1,390,695

England & Wales Population 53,339,300
Murder 762
violent Crime 1,059,913 <==WOW

lets look at these numbers a little closer mainly factoring in population. numbers per 100,000
US______England & wales
5.6_____1.4 You are 4 times more likely to be murdered in the US
469.2___1987.1 You are 4.23 times more likely to be a victim of a violent crime in England and wales than the US

violent crime in the us has been decreasing since 1992 and the murder rate is less than 2004 and much lower than it was in 1986

England and Wales Violent crime has been on the rise since 1998 and Murder has been only stopped rising in 2003 with a Decrease of 12 between 2003 and 2005

Our population if 5.5 times larger than England's with a much more diverse culture. hey want to brake the US numbers down by state that could be real fun showing how more Conservative states with Conceal Handgun laws has a lower crime rate then Liberal states huh?

People die its life don't blame the tool used.

[Cigarmark]

Originally Posted by maddman

This is response to Bowling for Columbine

Numbers for 2005

United State Statistics Population 296,410,404
Murder 16,692
Violent Crime 1,390,695

England & Wales Population 53,339,300
Murder 762
violent Crime 1,059,913 <==WOW

lets look at these numbers a little closer mainly factoring in population. numbers per 100,000
US______England & wales
5.6_____1.4 You are 4 times more likely to be murdered in the US
469.2___1987.1 You are 4.23 times more likely to be a victim of a violent crime in England and wales than the US

violent crime in the us has been decreasing since 1992 and the murder rate is less than 2004 and much lower than it was in 1986

England and Wales Violent crime has been on the rise since 1998 and Murder has been only stopped rising in 2003 with a Decrease of 12 between 2003 and 2005

Our population if 5.5 times larger than England's with a much more diverse culture. hey want to brake the US numbers down by state that could be real fun showing how more Conservative states with Conceal Handgun laws has a lower crime rate then Liberal states huh?

People die its life don't blame the tool used.

Blah, blah, blah! Here we go again, a conservative letting facts get in the way of good propaganda!

[ATLHARP]

Originally Posted by clampdown

The fact that our country is consumed with guns and violence and no one paid enough attention to any of the students at that school. THere isnt a day that goes by I dont think about some student bringing in a gun. Seeing his movie put a lot of things into perspective, perhaps we could have learned from that and a lot more and other tragedies in our schools might not have occured. ie VT.

What lie/half truth propaganda did he spout off?

America is NOT consumed with guns and violence. We have a our share of violence, but indeed some of that violence is used against the right people (i.e. terrorists, criminals).

I taught Social Studies as well, and last year a student did bring a gun onto campus. He was dealt with appropriately and summarily expelled and charged.
Yet, even with all that, my worry was not that a student would bring a gun onto campus, but that I would be powerless to defend myself in case it did happen. Concealed carry weapons permits are a must in a free society. These rampages by Muslims or twisted sociopaths on college campuses, shopping malls, or El Al ticket counters just show that our society needs more people armed and not less. How does a greater degree of powerless victims contribute to safety and security?

People who support "victim disarmament zones" are just as responsible for the dead in any massacre where a concealed weapon could have been used to neutralize an assailant. Americans have a right of self defense illustrated clearly in the 2nd amendment to the Constitution. The right is clearly stated by our founding fathers as an individual citizen's right and was not even thought of as anything else till the early 1900's. People who deny that this an individual right are the same as holocaust deniers in my book. To deny citizens rights which will directly impact their ability to defend themselves is the same as leading them to be slaughtered.


ATL

[Puros]

I think the biggest issue today is an overriding wave of victim hood in this country today. It is such a badge to be a victim these days that the true victims are overlooked. It is this victim hood that leads to an inability to cope with life, this lack of coping leads to explosive release as in demand of payment, over developed sense of entitlement or, in its extreme form, a mass shooting. The VA Tech shooter thought himself a martyr. Of what?? Who knows but he couldn't cope with his lot in life and saw himself as a victim to seek revenge on the some perceived oppressor. This leads us the intent of the person not to the tools they use.
I have made a wide sweep in way of explanation, so, I'll summarize. It is cool to be a victim, over victimization doesn't allow coping with a issue, lack of coping leads to overflow of emotions that can leads to the intent to take revenge.
Now, anywhere in this chain is the chance of person to be accountable and say that they must take responsibility for themselves. Again, they must have intent to help themselves.

It is truly sad that the true victims in the nation are not able to get their due and having to share the resources they need with those that simply need attention and lack self identity.

[cigar no baka]

The man is a shameless propogandist, not a documentarian. He has a proven history of misleading those he interviews; check out vets he has interviewed who say they were lied to by Mr. Moore. He horribly slants facts to fit his world view.

Some of the issues he addresses are worthy issues, but MM is a liar and a unabashed propogandist, so he as no credibility with me.

[No1der]

I saw this film at a friends house today and all I can say is WOW...

This is one heck of an eye opening film and it blew me away.

I am not a Democrat or Republican because they are both full of and surprising Moore discusses this and shows Hillary Clinton (who was behind socialized healthcare) as First Lady getting bought out by the healthcare lobbying groups that now contribute to her re-election capaign.

Every country that is portrayed in the film has it's problems but wow, I didn't realize just how much our politicians have sold us out.

All I can say is that whether you like Moore or not, go see this movie because there is so much in there that is just overwhelming.

Oh yeah, and he ends up taking 9-11 rescue workers, who can't get any help from the U.S. government with their health issues, to Cuba where they get the medical attention they couldn't afford at home.

Fire away at me if you want, I thought the movie was an eye opener.

[screwbag]

The thing that i do like about MM is that his movies (right or wrong) get people talking.....and I like to see more people discussin the issues....

[M1903A1]

Originally Posted by No1der

Oh yeah, and he ends up taking 9-11 rescue workers, who can't get any help from the U.S. government with their health issues, to Cuba where they get the medical attention they couldn't afford at home.

What, you think el barbudo would miss out on a propaganda opportunity that makes the US look bad? GAFB!!!

They may have a sh*tload of doctors (most of which they set aside for the nomenklatura or farm out to other countries), but it's a caste system. If you're military, a Party member or otherwise connected with the State, you get clean, stockpiled facilities. But if you're just Jose Q. Ban and your treatment calls for some kind of meds, you better hope you've got some exiled relatives who can bring you what you need. They have hardly any medical supplies for the common folk, and the conditions in most hospitals are horrendous.

www.therealcuba.com has a few pictures of Cuba's "wonderful" health care facilities. Don't look if you've got a weak (or full) stomach.

[No1der]

Originally Posted by M1903A1

What, you think el barbudo would miss out on a propaganda opportunity that makes the US look bad? GAFB!!!

They may have a sh*tload of doctors (most of which they set aside for the nomenklatura or farm out to other countries), but it's a caste system. If you're military, a Party member or otherwise connected with the State, you get clean, stockpiled facilities. But if you're just Jose Q. Ban and your treatment calls for some kind of meds, you better hope you've got some exiled relatives who can bring you what you need. They have hardly any medical supplies for the common folk, and the conditions in most hospitals are horrendous.

www.therealcuba.com has a few pictures of Cuba's "wonderful" health care facilities. Don't look if you've got a weak (or full) stomach.

I can't reply one way or the other about what you said because I personally haven't seen it with my own two eyes and I've been screwed over by the U.S. Government to such a degree that I no longer believe anything they tell me.

Suffice it to say that I worked for the big G during 9-11 on Cap. Hill and I got the royal screwing treatment after I left that job.

As far as Cuba goes, I don't know and can't answere your retort.

I do know from many Cubans that the level of education in that country is absolutely fantastic so why not the socialized healthcare?

On that note, did you know that Civics and Government are no longer required classes in American schools? I didn't know that untill two days ago.

[awsmith4]

In response, speak of the devil and he will appear, and Micheal Moore is most defiantly one jackass i don't want to appear.

[M1903A1]

Originally Posted by No1der

I can't reply one way or the other about what you said because I personally haven't seen it with my own two eyes and I've been screwed over by the U.S. Government to such a degree that I no longer believe anything they tell me.

Suffice it to say that I worked for the big G during 9-11 on Cap. Hill and I got the royal screwing treatment after I left that job.

I've heard precious little of what the Gov't has to say about Cuba today and I'm inclined to discount it (to various degrees) depending on who's talkin'. They claim to enforce a trade embargo, yet are happy to let loads of goods be sold to the Cubans. And no cigars for us, even through third-party countries (never mind that Castro's already gotten his money), yet Congresscritters write the laws to exempt themselves.

I've been intrigued with Cuba since LONG before I tried my first cigar...the accounts I've read from Cuban exiles match closely those from the old Soviet Union. If you're of the Party or military, or otherwise connected, you're set. If you're not...it sucks to be you.

I do know from many Cubans that the level of education in that country is absolutely fantastic so why not the socialized healthcare?

Where has socialized health care ever been "fantastic"? The system here may have its problems (and I think there are multiple factors behind it), but at least you can get prompt treatment, no waiting lists or really unsanitary facilities. Canadians and British subjects have socialized health care, yet their systems are so screwed up that people either die on waiting lists or have to come to the States for major procedures.

Of our system, to paraphrase a famous political quote, "it is the worst system of (health care), except for all the rest".

As to the Cuban educational system, it probably is good; so was the Soviet Union's. But as it's state-run, you learn what Fidelito wants you to learn, and if you question it or otherwise cause trouble (i.e. be a dissident), you're out. And if you want to leave Cuba, as with the Soviet Union, they expect you to pay back the State for the costs of that "free" education.

On that note, did you know that Civics and Government are no longer required classes in American schools? I didn't know that untill two days ago.

Don't get me going on our publik ejumakashun sistim! They were crammed, along with History, into "Social Studies" back in the 70s, and all three have been watered down to the point of uselessness. I'm the son of a teacher, so I can tell you plenty of war stories from THAT front!

[Strangg1]

Originally Posted by M1903A1

What, you think el barbudo would miss out on a propaganda opportunity that makes the US look bad? GAFB!!!

They may have a sh*tload of doctors (most of which they set aside for the nomenklatura or farm out to other countries), but it's a caste system. If you're military, a Party member or otherwise connected with the State, you get clean, stockpiled facilities. But if you're just Jose Q. Ban and your treatment calls for some kind of meds, you better hope you've got some exiled relatives who can bring you what you need. They have hardly any medical supplies for the common folk, and the conditions in most hospitals are horrendous.

www.therealcuba.com has a few pictures of Cuba's "wonderful" health care facilities. Don't look if you've got a weak (or full) stomach.

M1903A1 speaks the truth, if your an average Jose in cuba and you need good healthcare you are pretty much screwed. I've talked more than one exile who has told me horror stories of how craptastic their healthcare system is. I wish someone in Cuba would make a documentary on how crappy healthcare really is...oh wait they can't, they'd probably be shot. I'd like to see Mr. Moore stand outside the Castro compound in western Havana and protest the numerous human rights violations he has committed against the people of Cuba. We'd probably never find the body. (Ah well, a fellow can dream can't he?)


~S

[clampdown]

Originally Posted by ATLHARP

America is NOT consumed with guns and violence. We have a our share of violence, but indeed some of that violence is used against the right people (i.e. terrorists, criminals).

I taught Social Studies as well, and last year a student did bring a gun onto campus. He was dealt with appropriately and summarily expelled and charged.
Yet, even with all that, my worry was not that a student would bring a gun onto campus, but that I would be powerless to defend myself in case it did happen. Concealed carry weapons permits are a must in a free society. These rampages by Muslims or twisted sociopaths on college campuses, shopping malls, or El Al ticket counters just show that our society needs more people armed and not less. How does a greater degree of powerless victims contribute to safety and security?

People who support "victim disarmament zones" are just as responsible for the dead in any massacre where a concealed weapon could have been used to neutralize an assailant. Americans have a right of self defense illustrated clearly in the 2nd amendment to the Constitution. The right is clearly stated by our founding fathers as an individual citizen's right and was not even thought of as anything else till the early 1900's. People who deny that this an individual right are the same as holocaust deniers in my book. To deny citizens rights which will directly impact their ability to defend themselves is the same as leading them to be slaughtered.


ATL

Not sure you are living in the same country as I am to say the US is not consumed with violence. Go to the movies, turn on the television, look at the newspaper. I never said we dont have a right to own a gun, but to say that violence has not become part of our society is completely illogical to me.

So should we allow college kids, hell even 18 year old hs students to parade around campus with guns or teachers have guns in schools? Arming everyone is not the answer, if that was the case Iraq, Darfur, Rwanda would be peaceful utopias.

Wait you know what, youre right, lets let everyone living in the inner cities, like DC, have guns and they can protect themselves against the criminals, then crime rates will drop. God, its so easy. Guns are the answer. (Being personal in terms of georgrapic location to me). And all this time I thought raising a child right, giving services to underprivledge areas and education were the answer. God bless America, and pass the ammunition.