Bourbon lovers...in here (pipe forum)

[brianwalden]

DSturg and Johnny, what makes a Tennessee Whiskey (at least the ones currently in production) not Bourbon? DSturg said Bourbon cannot be filtered but that's not what the requirements JohnnyFlake posted said. It said it cannot have anything other than water added to the mixture. If those are the complete requirements, then the law as it stands is silent about filtering (which doesn't add anything, but rather subtracts).

Unless there's a legal ruling that clarifies it, I don't think we can be more restrictive than the law as written. And I'd bet that it will never be clarified because the two Tennessee Whiskeys currently in existence have no interest in calling themselves Bourbon.

[JohnnyFlake]

Originally Posted by brianwalden

DSturg and Johnny, what makes a Tennessee Whiskey (at least the ones currently in production) not Bourbon? DSturg said Bourbon cannot be filtered but that's not what the requirements JohnnyFlake posted said. It said it cannot have anything other than water added to the mixture. If those are the complete requirements, then the law as it stands is silent about filtering (which doesn't add anything, but rather subtracts).

Unless there's a legal ruling that clarifies it, I don't think we can be more restrictive than the law as written. And I'd bet that it will never be clarified because the two Tennessee Whiskeys currently in existence have no interest in calling themselves Bourbon.

There is a very long online article which gives the names of all the brands of Bourbon, Rye, Tennessee Whiskey, Etc. Jack Daniels is not listed as a Bourbon, it is listed as a Tennessee Whiskey. Under Tennessee Whiskey, this is what it states:

"A straight whiskey that is, for the most part, very similar to bourbon, which is why it's sometimes called "Tennessee bourbon." It must be made from a mash of at least 51 percent of a single grain (usually, but not always, corn), must not exceed 160 proof (80 percent alcohol), must be aged in oak barrels for 2 years and may only be diluted with water to no less than 80 proof. The biggest difference between bourbon and Tennessee whiskey is that the latter is slowly filtered through large vats of sugar-maple charcoal, which gives it a definitively sweet characteristic."

[brianwalden]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlake

There is a very long online article which gives the names of all the brands of Bourbon, Rye, Tennessee Whiskey, Etc. Jack Daniels is not listed as a Bourbon, it is listed as a Tennessee Whiskey. Under Tennessee Whiskey, this is what it states:

"A straight whiskey that is, for the most part, very similar to bourbon, which is why it's sometimes called "Tennessee bourbon." It must be made from a mash of at least 51 percent of a single grain (usually, but not always, corn), must not exceed 160 proof (80 percent alcohol), must be aged in oak barrels for 2 years and may only be diluted with water to no less than 80 proof. The biggest difference between bourbon and Tennessee whiskey is that the latter is slowly filtered through large vats of sugar-maple charcoal, which gives it a definitively sweet characteristic."

Right. A four sided figure with the sides at 90 degree angles is a rectangle. A four sided figure with the sides at 90 degree angles and all four sides the same length is a square. But a square doesn't stop being a rectangle just because it's a square; it's both a square and a rectangle.

I think everyone agrees that the only difference between Jack Daniels and any other Bourbon is that it's charcoal filtered. As far as I can tell the legal requirements for a Bourbon don't say that filtering disqualifies it from being a Bourbon. So isn't Jack Daniels both Tennessee Whiskey and Bourbon?

I will concede that it's possible for a Tennessee Whiskey to not be a Bourbon. It looks like the only requirements for Tennessee Whiskey are that it be whiskey made in TN and that it go through that special filtering process. So someone could, for example, make a whiskey in TN from less than 50% corn and filter it and have Tennessee Whiskey that's not Bourbon. But as far as I know Jack Daniels and George Dickel are the only Tennessee Whiskeys being made today and they both fulfill the requirements for Bourbon.

[uvacom]

Originally Posted by brianwalden

Right. A four sided figure with the sides at 90 degree angles is a rectangle. A four sided figure with the sides at 90 degree angles and all four sides the same length is a square. But a square doesn't stop being a rectangle just because it's a square; it's both a square and a rectangle.

I think everyone agrees that the only difference between Jack Daniels and any other Bourbon is that it's charcoal filtered. As far as I can tell the legal requirements for a Bourbon don't say that filtering disqualifies it from being a Bourbon. So isn't Jack Daniels both Tennessee Whiskey and Bourbon?

I will concede that it's possible for a Tennessee Whiskey to not be a Bourbon. It looks like the only requirements for Tennessee Whiskey are that it be whiskey made in TN and that it go through that special filtering process. So someone could, for example, make a whiskey in TN from less than 50% corn and filter it and have Tennessee Whiskey that's not Bourbon. But as far as I know Jack Daniels and George Dickel are the only Tennessee Whiskeys being made today and they both fulfill the requirements for Bourbon.

Your logic is sound, however the law only codifies what can be called a bourbon, it does not define what a bourbon is. Dickel and JD both make whiskies that they could call bourbons under the law, but they choose to call them tennessee whiskies. I think maybe it's fair to say that within the context of distilled spirits, terroir is usually given a fair degree of importance (although I don't actually know if the corn for bourbons or tennessee whiskies come from geographically specific farms), so maybe it isn't such a far stretch to distinguish between the two.

On the other hand, if I'm in the mood for a good bourbon, a glass of dickel will do just fine for me.

[JohnnyFlake]

Originally Posted by brianwalden

Right. A four sided figure with the sides at 90 degree angles is a rectangle. A four sided figure with the sides at 90 degree angles and all four sides the same length is a square. But a square doesn't stop being a rectangle just because it's a square; it's both a square and a rectangle.

I think everyone agrees that the only difference between Jack Daniels and any other Bourbon is that it's charcoal filtered. As far as I can tell the legal requirements for a Bourbon don't say that filtering disqualifies it from being a Bourbon. So isn't Jack Daniels both Tennessee Whiskey and Bourbon?

I will concede that it's possible for a Tennessee Whiskey to not be a Bourbon. It looks like the only requirements for Tennessee Whiskey are that it be whiskey made in TN and that it go through that special filtering process. So someone could, for example, make a whiskey in TN from less than 50% corn and filter it and have Tennessee Whiskey that's not Bourbon. But as far as I know Jack Daniels and George Dickel are the only Tennessee Whiskeys being made today and they both fulfill the requirements for Bourbon.

You play on words is interesting, however, not correct.

The filtering process for Tennessee Whiskey uses Sugar Maple Charcoal which certainly removes impurities, however, it also adds a flavoring component which is not used in Bourbon. That flavoring is added during the final filtering process via the use of Sugar Maple Charcoal. See below. I am puzzled as to why you feel it necessary to try and make an issue of what the truth is. It is what it is! If you chose to call a true Tennessee Whiskey a Bourbon, that's fine but why argue against what is historically accept fact?

The important thing is to drink what you like and like what you drink. If you want to call a Tennessee Whiskey a Bourbon or a Bourbon a Whiskey that's fine. Whatever makes you happy!

There is a very long online article which gives the names of all the brands of Bourbon, Rye, Tennessee Whiskey, Etc. Jack Daniels is not listed as a Bourbon, it is listed as a Tennessee Whiskey. Under Tennessee Whiskey, this is what it states:

"A straight whiskey that is, for the most part, very similar to bourbon, which is why it's sometimes called "Tennessee bourbon." It must be made from a mash of at least 51 percent of a single grain (usually, but not always, corn), must not exceed 160 proof (80 percent alcohol), must be aged in oak barrels for 2 years and may only be diluted with water to no less than 80 proof. The biggest difference between bourbon and Tennessee whiskey is that the latter is slowly filtered through large vats of sugar-maple charcoal, which gives it a definitively sweet characteristic."

[DSturg369]

Hell, I don't care if was filtered through old pantyhose and aged in a milk jug, I'd probably drink it.

[uvacom]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlake

You play on words is interesting, however, not correct.

The filtering process for Tennessee Whiskey uses Sugar Maple Charcoal which certainly removes impurities, however, it also adds a flavoring component which is not used in Bourbon. That flavoring is added during the final filtering process via the use of Sugar Maple Charcoal. See below. I am puzzled as to why you feel it necessary to try and make an issue of what the truth is. It is what it is! If you chose to call a true Tennessee Whiskey a Bourbon, that's fine but why argue against what is historically accept fact?

The sugar maple charcoal's purpose is to remove impurities, not to add flavor. Heavy wool blankets are placed above and below the charcoal in order to ensure that none of the charcoal itself makes it into the whiskey. Sugar maple is used because sugars carbonize when burned, creating a large surface area for filtering. The sugar maple charcoal is most assuredly not sweet itself. It is, in fact, charcoal.

The "added" sweetness is really removed bitterness.

[brianwalden]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlake

You play on words is interesting, however, not correct.

Maybe it's not correct, but it hasn't been proven incorrect. I think it's prudent to be loose in our interpretation of the law until it is clarified. And I assure you I'm not trying to be deceitful. I don't think that filtering the whiskey before aging is what the law had in mind when it said that nothing could be added to the mixture.

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlake

The filtering process for Tennessee Whiskey uses Sugar Maple Charcoal which certainly removes impurities, however, it also adds a flavoring component which is not used in Bourbon. That flavoring is added during the final filtering process via the use of Sugar Maple Charcoal.

I dunno, that seems like calling zippo fluid from my lighter top dressing on my tobacco. What if the barrels used to age a bourbon were charred by filling them with burning peat instead of whatever they normally use to char the barrels. That would certainly impart a different flavor on the whiskey, would it make it not bourbon? The intent of the Tennessee filtering method is to remove impurities and mellow out the flavor - it's basically a cheap aging method not a flavoring like what's in Southern Comfort.

As further evidence I present this: http://babyrific.files.wordpress.com...eam-choice.jpg

It says both Straight Bourbon and Charcoal Filtered on the label. Apparently Charcoal filtering doesn't necessarily disqualify a whiskey from being a Bourbon.

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlake

See below. I am puzzled as to why you feel it necessary to try and make an issue of what the truth is. It is what it is! If you chose to call a true Tennessee Whiskey a Bourbon, that's fine but why argue against what is historically accept fact?

I like logic problems, and this is a logic problem. This is purely academic. Even if Jack and George Dickel are also Bourbons, they're never going to call themselves Bourbon. And the Bourbon makers want the Tennessee Whiskeys to keep calling themselves Tennessee Whiskey. So in real life it's never going to be tested.

I agree 100% that the truth is what it is. Actually, in this case the truth is what the authority says it is. If the authority is the U.S. Government, we need to wait until a Tennessee Whiskey calls itself Bourbon and gets sued and then the government issues a ruling clarifying the law. If the authority is the whiskey makers and what they want to call themselves, then Bourbon and Tennessee Whiskey are two mutually exclusive categories.

But I don't think this subject is historically accepted fact. The strictly defined legal terms are relatively new - if anything history will show a long and confusing trail of definitions of whiskeys much like we currently have with defining different types of tobacco blends.

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlake

The important thing is to drink what you like and like what you drink. If you want to call a Tennessee Whiskey a Bourbon or a Bourbon a Whiskey that's fine. Whatever makes you happy!

Agreed to an extent. If I want to call Jack Daniels fruit punch, please correct me for my own sake. I guess I just don't like it when people jump on someone for calling Jack a Bourbon or turn up their nose when they see Jack listed under Bourbon on a menu. Jack won't ever call themselves a Bourbon, but my money says they wouldn't be in any legal trouble if they did.

My last bit of evidence, the Free Trade Area of the America's treaty (ALCA - FTAA - ZLEA - Draft Agreement - Chapter on Market Access) the bolding is mine:

[SIZE=2][15.1. Parties shall recognize Bourbon Whiskey and Tennessee Whiskey, which is a straight Bourbon Whisky authorized to be produced only in the State of Tennessee, as distinctive products of the United States. Accordingly, Parties shall not permit the sale of any product as Bourbon Whiskey or Tennessee Whiskey, unless it has been manufactured in the United States in accordance with the laws and regulations of the United States governing the manufacture of Bourbon Whiskey and Tennessee Whiskey.][/SIZE]

P.S. for the sake of full disclosure I'm not a huge Jack Daniels fan or anything. I mean it's good and all, I just find the difference between it and other whiskeys too small to justify the price.

[Old_Salt]

Originally Posted by Dylan Cerling

I like Wild Turkey and Jim Beam Black.

I had a bad, bad experience with Knob Creek - the only time I've had real, honest-to-god alcohol poisoning - and I'm never going to have it again.

Been there & did that! mine was with

[JohnnyFlake]

Originally Posted by uvacom

The sugar maple charcoal's purpose is to remove impurities, not to add flavor. Heavy wool blankets are placed above and below the charcoal in order to ensure that none of the charcoal itself makes it into the whiskey. Sugar maple is used because sugars carbonize when burned, creating a large surface area for filtering. The sugar maple charcoal is most assuredly not sweet itself. It is, in fact, charcoal.

The "added" sweetness is really removed bitterness.

I would love to see some data on what you state above. Why is it emphasized in the following, that Sugar Maple Charcoal is used, not simply charcoal and why does it emphasize the use of Sugar Maple Charcoal that give it a definitively sweet characteristic.

Wool blankets or not (which I've never heard of) the whiskey does come in direct contact with the charcoal during the filtering process.

"A straight whiskey that is, for the most part, very similar to bourbon, which is why it's sometimes called "Tennessee bourbon." It must be made from a mash of at least 51 percent of a single grain (usually, but not always, corn), must not exceed 160 proof (80 percent alcohol), must be aged in oak barrels for 2 years and may only be diluted with water to no less than 80 proof. The biggest difference between bourbon and Tennessee whiskey is that the latter is slowly filtered through large vats of sugar-maple charcoal, which gives it a definitively sweet characteristic."

[uvacom]

Sugar maple is used, as I said, because of the high sugar content, so that when the wood is combusted the carbon-ash ratio will be favorable. That tree specifically is probably used because A) it's tradition, and B) because it's a good tree which is regionally available for making charcoal suitable for their purposes.

I don't know where your article comes from, but all it says is that the filtration process gives the whiskey a characteristically sweet flavor (which is a matter of opinion, I personally find tennessee whiskeys to be somewhat "smoother" but not really sweeter than bourbons) - it doesn't say that it does so by adding sugar or any other compound. Removing the peel from an orange before you bite into it also gives the orange a characteristically sweet flavor compared to biting into the orange with the peel intact, but you are not adding anything to the orange, you are merely removing a part of it which contains unpalatable compounds.

[JohnnyFlake]

Originally Posted by uvacom

Sugar maple is used, as I said, because of the high sugar content, so that when the wood is combusted the carbon-ash ratio will be favorable. That tree specifically is probably used because A) it's tradition, and B) because it's a good tree which is regionally available for making charcoal suitable for their purposes.

I don't know where your article comes from, but all it says is that the filtration process gives the whiskey a characteristically sweet flavor (which is a matter of opinion, I personally find tennessee whiskeys to be somewhat "smoother" but not really sweeter than bourbons) - it doesn't say that it does so by adding sugar or any other compound. Removing the peel from an orange before you bite into it also gives the orange a characteristically sweet flavor compared to biting into the orange with the peel intact, but you are not adding anything to the orange, you are merely removing a part of it which contains unpalatable compounds.

The article and much more information comes from this link:

List of whisky brands: Information from Answers.com

Well, you've come up with another great play on words. That seems to be your and Brianwalden's forte. You both say a lot in defense of your personal position, and always very well worded I might add, but prove nothing!

Anyway, it's been fun, but I'm am finished with this, as further discussion is mute! I am happily willing to accept what is historically accepted, as what it is.

[stfoley]

Booker's for me....I love the stuff.

Some Booker's, and some Burley in the pipe....heaven.