Puff Cigar Discussion Forums
MEMBER CIGAR REVIEWS | STAFF CIGAR REVIEWS | CIGAR VIDEOS | ONE ON ONE INTERVIEWS | CIGAR NEWS | CIGAR FORUMS | PIPES | LIFESTYLE | CONTACT

User Tag List

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 32

Smell vs Taste

This is a discussion on Smell vs Taste within the General Pipe Forum forums, part of the Pipe Smokers Forums category; Originally Posted by ChronoB I'm a little late to this party, but here you go. I actually taste very little ...

  
  1. #16

    Sot-weed Bohemian freestoke's Avatar


     

    Re: Smell vs Taste

    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoB View Post
    I'm a little late to this party, but here you go. I actually taste very little to nothing with my tongue (or I'm not perceiving it as taste, so it doesn't matter) with tobacco. I get almost all flavor/aroma through smell. That being said, I think you should buy some blends with latakia/orientals in them (i.e. English blends). And if you don't already retrohale I find it is even more important with pipe tobacco than cigars: How to Retrohale Cigar Smoke - YouTube
    Exactly. The tongue only tastes five (possibly six) things: salt, sweet, sour, bitter and ogami (protein). Everything else is olfactory.
    Vegetarian -- that's an old Indian word meaning "lousy hunter". -- Andy Rooney

  2. #17

    Maturing Puffer Fish JohnnyDarkside's Avatar


     

    Re: Smell vs Taste

    One suggestion I would have for blends is McClelland Pebblecut. It has a very heavy perique blend which adds a very strong and "spicy" taste. It is also gives a pretty good nic hit.

  3. #18

    Puffer Fish with some spikes Tumadre99's Avatar


     

    Re: Smell vs Taste

    Quote Originally Posted by freestoke View Post
    Hey, it'll take you that long to organize the trade with your EPS. Get crackin', Oscar!
    well then looks like im signing up sooner rather than later, hahaha

    Quote Originally Posted by freestoke View Post
    Everything else is olfactory.
    This is definitely true beyond the cigar realm. I took a few kinesiology classes this past year. Interesting stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoB View Post
    And if you don't already retrohale I find it is even more important with pipe tobacco than cigars
    I find it much easier to retrohale with pipes vs cigars, as in I can't do it at all with my nose killing me with a cigar, but no problem with a pipe. While its not done on every pull, I definitely do it far more frequently than I do with a cigar.


    Once again, Thank you everyone for the help and millions of blends I must try!
    Good thing im only 20, lots of years of sampling ahead of me.

  4. #19

    Elder Puffer Fish Leader MarkC's Avatar


     

    Re: Smell vs Taste

    Quote Originally Posted by Tumadre99 View Post
    I find it much easier to retrohale with pipes vs cigars, as in I can't do it at all with my nose killing me with a cigar, but no problem with a pipe. While its not done on every pull, I definitely do it far more frequently than I do with a cigar.
    That's interesting; I'm just the opposite.
    ********.com

  5. #20

    Sot-weed Bohemian freestoke's Avatar


     

    Re: Smell vs Taste

    Quote Originally Posted by Tumadre99 View Post
    I find it much easier to retrohale with pipes vs cigars, as in I can't do it at all with my nose killing me with a cigar, but no problem with a pipe.
    That would largely depend on the tobacco; when you smoke stronger pipe tobaccos, your nose might change its mind. On a side issue, perique is known for its "snorkiness", a little pepper-like burn in the nose that we masochists find quite refreshing. PM me your address and I'll give you the opportunity to fire up some Bayou Morning Flake.
    Last edited by freestoke; 01-04-2013 at 09:51 AM.
    Vegetarian -- that's an old Indian word meaning "lousy hunter". -- Andy Rooney

  6. #21

    Snuff-hound steinr1's Avatar


     

    Re: Smell vs Taste

    Quote Originally Posted by freestoke View Post
    Exactly. The tongue only tastes five (possibly six) things: salt, sweet, sour, bitter and ogami (protein). Everything else is olfactory.
    Hmmm. I'm not so sure about this. The "standard" tongue taste map, whether including umami or not, has been discredited for some time and never really had any empirical basis. Taste, like sight, is a complex sense. No-one would say that you can only see three colours despite the fact that there are a limited number of different sensor cells in the eye (and the "one colour per cell type" is a gross simplification of reality). You can't simply mix the "basic" 4, 5 or 6 taste components in the right proportions and come up with a truffle; sadly it just doesn't work like that. The tongue has clusters of different types of taste buds across it's whole surface and it's the degree to which different types are stimulated that gives a "name" to a taste. We've also all heard of the effect of blocking the nose and tasting various things without smell, I'm sure. Smell plays its part directly in the taste sensation (and smell is a whole mess of complex in itself - different organs involved and quite different brain areas). The eye also seems to play an important role in taste, oddly enough. An aged red wine can't necessarily be distinguished from a white by "taste" alone. But give an "expert" sight of the wine and they will tell you that it clearly has the attributes of the appropriate type. The overall "taste" of something needs all sense elements present to give a full picture. I'd even add "touch" to the mix. The mouth feel of tobacco smoke changes my opinion of the "taste" of a smoke. The sensations that I attribute to "Lakeland sauce" have a "feel" to them that I associate with unctuousness of fatty substances and that adds to the overall taste determination. One of the "olfactory" organs (Jacobson's Organ) deals mainly with non-volatile components - is that taste or smell? This may be the main sense "added" at play when retro-haling which might be better thought of as "tasting" the smoke rather than "smelling" it. Tongue flicking in reptiles is used to bring these non-volatile tastes in contact with the organ. All very complex...
    "Never keep up with the Joneses. Drag them down to your level." - Quentin Crisp

  7. #22

    It's a cliff not a slope! jheiliger's Avatar


     

    Re: Smell vs Taste

    The retrohale definitely depends on the tobacco/cigar being smoked. Most cigars for me are quite smooth through the nose, but some burn like crazy! Just depends on the blend...
    I live such a great life... A beautiful family, a job I love, and a few good smokes to keep my head on straight.

  8. #23

    Sot-weed Bohemian freestoke's Avatar


     

    Re: Smell vs Taste

    Quote Originally Posted by steinr1 View Post
    Hmmm. I'm not so sure about this. The "standard" tongue taste map, whether including umami or not, has been discredited for some time and never really had any empirical basis. Taste, like sight, is a complex sense. No-one would say that you can only see three colours despite the fact that there are a limited number of different sensor cells in the eye (and the "one colour per cell type" is a gross simplification of reality). You can't simply mix the "basic" 4, 5 or 6 taste components in the right proportions and come up with a truffle; sadly it just doesn't work like that. The tongue has clusters of different types of taste buds across it's whole surface and it's the degree to which different types are stimulated that gives a "name" to a taste. We've also all heard of the effect of blocking the nose and tasting various things without smell, I'm sure. Smell plays its part directly in the taste sensation (and smell is a whole mess of complex in itself - different organs involved and quite different brain areas). The eye also seems to play an important role in taste, oddly enough. An aged red wine can't necessarily be distinguished from a white by "taste" alone. But give an "expert" sight of the wine and they will tell you that it clearly has the attributes of the appropriate type. The overall "taste" of something needs all sense elements present to give a full picture. I'd even add "touch" to the mix. The mouth feel of tobacco smoke changes my opinion of the "taste" of a smoke. The sensations that I attribute to "Lakeland sauce" have a "feel" to them that I associate with unctuousness of fatty substances and that adds to the overall taste determination. One of the "olfactory" organs (Jacobson's Organ) deals mainly with non-volatile components - is that taste or smell? This may be the main sense "added" at play when retro-haling which might be better thought of as "tasting" the smoke rather than "smelling" it. Tongue flicking in reptiles is used to bring these non-volatile tastes in contact with the organ. All very complex...
    "Umami". Apparently I had a cerebral vapor lock there.

    I believe the basis for thinking that there are only five is that when the olfactory bulb is disabled, one cannot tell the difference between an apple and a pear, between bacon and beef jerky and so forth. Any similarly textured food with similar tongue-taste components are indistinguishable in experiments that have mapped this out, so it functions in a different way than the RGB mixes in the visual cortex responding to the retinal cell wavelength-based chemical reactions. There can be differences of a non-mixing sort -- saccharine versus sugar, for example -- but this has nothing to do with comparing the two tastes to bitter or salt, rather it reflects a different intensity response among the sweet receptors. The olfactory bulb can detect and sort out thousands of chemicals, and it would appear that Occam's razor applies in trying to find a reason why plastic punkin tomatoes taste different from old stock vine ripened ones. In a way, I would agree with what you are saying, that a sweet-sour dish involves a compound perception, but the taste of onions and tomatoes is added by the brain with information drifting through the nose. The computational aspect of the brain dealing with olfactory sensations is analogous to the processing of color perception (although the visual cortex must also do far more in detecting shapes, movement, distance, and so forth). From an evolutionary standpoint, there is some value in "weighing" the admixtures of the basic taste receptor information, since they are tip-offs to odorless poisonous components which are frequently bitter, but not so much in "blending" them. In visual and olfactory perception, it matters a lot.

    As to the tongue map, it is only discredited in the sense that the receptors are not truly isolated in the "map" regions, but scattered here and there on the tongue's surface. The old map does reflect the heavier densities of specific receptors in the various regions. The types of receptors are not similarly in dispute, with umami being the latest one identified. There is some indication of a "fat" receptor, too, which would hardly be surprising. Your suggestion of a sense of "feel" certainly doesn't conflict with any discussion of the five basic taste receptors, since obviously the tongue can sense temperature, pressure, pain, and the full range of tactile stimuli available to other parts of the body -- in spades. Indeed, texture is fundamental to identifying what we are really eating; even the teeth are involved in identifying what's in our mouths, yet another reason to add clenching to your pipe enjoyment.
    Vegetarian -- that's an old Indian word meaning "lousy hunter". -- Andy Rooney

  9. #24

    Snuff-hound steinr1's Avatar


     

    Re: Smell vs Taste

    Quote Originally Posted by freestoke View Post
    "Umami". Apparently I had a cerebral vapor lock there.

    I believe the basis for thinking that there are only five is that when the olfactory bulb is disabled, one cannot tell the difference between an apple and a pear, between bacon and beef jerky and so forth. Any similarly textured food with similar tongue-taste components are indistinguishable in experiments that have mapped this out, so it functions in a different way than the RGB mixes in the visual cortex responding to the retinal cell wavelength-based chemical reactions. There can be differences of a non-mixing sort -- saccharine versus sugar, for example -- but this has nothing to do with comparing the two tastes to bitter or salt, rather it reflects a different intensity response among the sweet receptors. The olfactory bulb can detect and sort out thousands of chemicals, and it would appear that Occam's razor applies in trying to find a reason why plastic punkin tomatoes taste different from old stock vine ripened ones. In a way, I would agree with what you are saying, that a sweet-sour dish involves a compound perception, but the taste of onions and tomatoes is added by the brain with information drifting through the nose. The computational aspect of the brain dealing with olfactory sensations is analogous to the processing of color perception (although the visual cortex must also do far more in detecting shapes, movement, distance, and so forth). From an evolutionary standpoint, there is some value in "weighing" the admixtures of the basic taste receptor information, since they are tip-offs to odorless poisonous components which are frequently bitter, but not so much in "blending" them. In visual and olfactory perception, it matters a lot.

    As to the tongue map, it is only discredited in the sense that the receptors are not truly isolated in the "map" regions, but scattered here and there on the tongue's surface. The old map does reflect the heavier densities of specific receptors in the various regions. The types of receptors are not similarly in dispute, with umami being the latest one identified. There is some indication of a "fat" receptor, too, which would hardly be surprising. Your suggestion of a sense of "feel" certainly doesn't conflict with any discussion of the five basic taste receptors, since obviously the tongue can sense temperature, pressure, pain, and the full range of tactile stimuli available to other parts of the body -- in spades. Indeed, texture is fundamental to identifying what we are really eating; even the teeth are involved in identifying what's in our mouths, yet another reason to add clenching to your pipe enjoyment.
    Yep. It's complex. I suspect that there is a lot of chicken and egg stuff going on as well. Things smell like the things we expect them to smell like. I've played with alleged wine experts by suggesting tastes and aromas that I couldn't detect and shouldn't (by conventional wisdom) be present in a particular wine. I've quite often got the "Oh, yes. Very distinct." response. Visual recognition systems are difficult to deal with because a lot of what goes on is educated guesswork or the brain filling in detail that simply does not exist because the brain knows "it MUST be there"; I suspect similar for our olfactory systems. I strongly suspect that one of the reasons that it is experimentally impossible to tell the difference between two "taste identical" foods without smell is that humans don't normally need to do this. I do wonder if those with long-term, total anosmia CAN tell the difference between bacon and beef-jerky without looking.

    There has been a huge amount of research in vision science; I'm not sure there has been the same with smell or taste (Because I'm not sure... My wife's company specialises in vision science technology so I have a lot of exposure to that side.). But I suspect that the processing systems are just as occult and complex. Simply because there are a limited number of types of receptor doesn't limit the span of different responses and certainly not the interpretation of those responses. Once again - it's complex...

    But I think we are more or less on the same page at the high level. Smell, taste, feel and the strange happenings in the Jacobson's Organ are all imperfect and partial views of the whole. You need them all.
    "Never keep up with the Joneses. Drag them down to your level." - Quentin Crisp

  10. #25

    Sot-weed Bohemian freestoke's Avatar


     

    Re: Smell vs Taste

    A couple of other nifty aspects of the sense of smell is that it can do two contrary things. First, it can take an odor and remove it from the mix of what is being smelled. After a time, your brain will begin to ignore a specific odor in a given environment, say a perfume or a pile of manure, allowing you to smell previously masked odors. Second, odors are "additive" (I think that was the word), whereby tiny amounts of a specific scent gradually add up over time, a smell so faint that you could not smell it in a short exposure. This is not the same as gradually noticing a previously undetectable odor due to it being masked by some other odor, since that newly detected odor would have been noticeable by itself except for the masking. This "additive" feature involves a sort of autonomic memory, whereby encountering a number of isolated molecules of a substance, over a fairly extended period, gradually add up to a perception of the substance, despite the concentration of the molecules being insufficient for it to be noticed in a shorter time.

    How all this applies to pipe smoking and the tasting of tobacco, one can only imagine, but I'll bet it does.
    Vegetarian -- that's an old Indian word meaning "lousy hunter". -- Andy Rooney

  11. #26

    Puffer Fish with some spikes Tumadre99's Avatar


     

    Re: Smell vs Taste

    Robert & Jim: Thought i'd give you some RG. Excellent conversation on the aspect of smelling and tasting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Robert: What you mentioned about getting ppl to taste non-existing flavors is called priming. Its the funniest thing to do!

    Jim: the sense of smell is fast-adaptive like you said, but the faint and consciously undetectable smell to strong and consciously detectable smell over time is due to a couple factors. Gas Laws and the brain filtering information with the unconscious mind.

    When a gas is released into an environment depending on the environmental factors it will slowly increase its presence throughout that environment. So it'll go from a concentrated area to throughout the environment. Then your brain will receive signals from the nose and usually when its faint and in very small quantities your unconscious mind will basically deem it useless information for the consciousness and handle the situation how it deems fit. The unconscious mind is ridiculously powerful.

    Mark: I think its just the fact that these two types of baccy I do have aren't as strong or as spicy as the cigars I smoke. I nearly died the other day at a cigar lounge. It was quite embarrassing actually hahaha. It was a La Aurora Cameroon, and we were watching the end of the 1960's film Grand Prix. I decided to be ballsy for god knows why and retrohale a puff. As soon as I did my nasal passages burned hotter than hell and I was practically crying. My eyes got so watery it wasn't funny. IDK how I managed to hold those tears back. I then tried breathing through my mouth inhaling smoke which you know just made the rest of the situation worse until I recovered haha.

  12. #27

    Snuff-hound steinr1's Avatar


     

    Re: Smell vs Taste

    Quote Originally Posted by Tumadre99 View Post
    Robert & Jim: Thought i'd give you some RG. Excellent conversation on the aspect of smelling and tasting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Robert: What you mentioned about getting ppl to taste non-existing flavors is called priming. Its the funniest thing to do!
    Thanks, Oscar, glad you're enjoying it. And we hadn't even got on to synaesthesia yet... The man who can 'taste' words: 'Gordon Brown tastes revolting, while Tony Blair tastes of desiccated coconut' | Mail Online

    "Priming" is, indeed, good fun - I think of it as my pretentious arse detector. It is a bit unfair; smell/taste is very suggestible and a good maxim in wine tasting is "Say anything you like about the bouquet; just don't get the acid wrong". I've also gotten very odd looks from people who say "No - that's just not there".
    "Never keep up with the Joneses. Drag them down to your level." - Quentin Crisp

  13. #28

    Young Puffer Fish


     

    Re: Smell vs Taste

    I like to load up two pipes. One with an english blend and one with an aromatic. I mainly smoke the english but every 5 minutes or so, I pick up the aromatic and take a few puffs. That routine seems to help somewhat to bring back the taste and smell of the aromatic so that my taste/smell buds don't get fatigued. Anyone else do this?

  14. #29

    Puffer Fish with some spikes Tumadre99's Avatar


     

    Re: Smell vs Taste

    Robert: Dude synaesthesia is crazy! I haven't heard of that before, but that would be incredibly weird and awkward...


    Joel: I have never tried that, but then again...I haven't tried much with pipes haha!

    I guess you would just have to make sure the non-aro and aro pair well with each other and not have completely different flavors.

  15. #30

    Sot-weed Bohemian freestoke's Avatar


     

    Re: Smell vs Taste

    Quote Originally Posted by Tumadre99 View Post
    Robert: Dude synaesthesia is crazy! I haven't heard of that before, but that would be incredibly weird and awkward...
    Or not...from New Scientist:


    THE word "synaesthesia" derives from the phrase "joining of the senses", but the phenomenon might not be the uncontrollable perceptual mishmash that this implies. Instead, the condition may be the result of a special ability in the "higher" brain areas used for language and attention.

    Earlier experiments found that people with colour-grapheme synaesthesia, who link numbers and letters with certain colours, are incredibly speedy at a certain task. That is identifying hidden shapes formed out of one number or letter that are embedded in a sea of different, similar-looking characters: a pattern made up of "2"s on a background of "5"s, for example. It was assumed that they automatically imbue the numbers with different colours, causing the hidden pattern to "pop out" as soon as they glance at the display.

    Vegetarian -- that's an old Indian word meaning "lousy hunter". -- Andy Rooney

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •