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Help with guns...

This is a discussion on Help with guns... within the Guns and Knives forums, part of the Everything But Cigars category; Originally Posted by hoax I vote shotgun for home defence. There is no scarier sound then the sound of a ...

  
  1. #31

    Down with the sickness ShawnP's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by hoax View Post
    I vote shotgun for home defence.

    There is no scarier sound then the sound of a shotgun racking. I'd much rather the criminal run away then deal with having a confrontation with bullets in the air and then dealing with the police and possible legal action.

    So yeah, shotgun.

    Problem with that is my 12g has 1 in the pipe all the time. No racking here unless I unload one in someone's Arse then rack the empty.

    I would not keep that train of thought towards your 12g and home defense. One day that may make a bad situation worse for you.

    I worry about my family not the legal action afterwards. If I shoot then it is to save my family or my life. I will state that in court if need be but he won't be able to make it that's for sure.

    Shawn

  2. #32

    I need a herf GoodFella's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by ShawnP View Post
    I worry about my family not the legal action afterwards. If I shoot then it is to save my family or my life. I will state that in court if need be but he won't be able to make it that's for sure.
    Shawn
    this is a good minds set dont let bad guys beat you before they meet you. if court scares you that bad and you want a gun you better pick up and move to a free state.

  3. #33

    Howler Monkey Munkey's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    I've fired between 20k-30k rounds in many various guns. My two favorites are Kimber .45 and Sig P226. That said. Those are MY favs. I've seen tremendous results with Walther P99 (has the advantage of 3 grip sizes in the box), HK, Glock, etc... I love Sigs, but the P220 (.45 vs. the 226 9mm) is not fun to shoot.

    A couple facts about home defense. Most 'gunfights' happen from a range of 8-10 feet and are less than 4 rounds fired. Pretty much any gun is accurate at this distance if you point it right. Practice at this distance, not 15-25 yards. Sure, hitting that tack way out there might be impressive at the range, but I'd rather be able to pull the trigger 2-4 times and keep the weapon on target (make sure you move the gun down to hit the falling body on the way down).

    .357's that are fairly light pack a hell of a wallop so, they generally aren't good guns for women that don't have strong hands. As for revolvers, they are simpler to use and easier to access than a shotgun that will probably be kept in a closet. A revolver need not be a cowboy length gun either. Remember, you are shooting close distance in a house. A short barrel will be fine if you point at your target.

    For shotguns, a lot depends on your cartridge. You can get the same number of pellets out of a 20 G as you can a 12 G. Shot pattern is different.

    Many gave advice for finding the gun that feels right to both of you. It's dead on. (No pun intended.) If you don't like the way the gun feels (I can't stand polymer handguns personally) you won't practice with it or become proficient in it's use.

    Shooting regularly is more important that banging out a lot rounds each time you go to the range.

    Lastly. Treat every gun you touch as though it were loaded. It doesn't matter if you just unloaded it yourself.
    Begging won't make it hurt less.




  4. #34

    RGD
    RGD is offline
    Elder Jungle Leader - Not RGD's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    You know most of the people who respond to this thread are somewhat proficient with weapons and therefore give great advice on what each one likes. You on the other hand are not - so I'd like to offer just another thought for you on your home defense planning - get a dog. Get some spray deterrent for your wife to use and a dog for family protection.

    Not saying don't get a gun of some type - you want one and hey that's great - I own several myself - but there's a lot of thought that needs to go into all of this. The allure of a high caliber weapon is neat - just remember though if'n you miss - it's not like on TV where some drywall and a hollow core door stop the bullet's - they are going to keep on going through that wall or couch and maybe hit somebody on the other side.
    Another deal is this - are you going to keep that gun within hands reach at all times? Again it's not like on the movies where the good guy just happens to have his piece handy when the bad guy breaks in. Having it locked in the bedroom is not gonna do a whole lot of good if you are in the living room when the dude breaks in. You also need to be mentally prepared to pull that trigger - otherwise your gun could be used against you.
    And cause it has to be mentioned - more accidents happen in the home then actual home defense use
    Not meaning to type a book here - just wanting to add a few thoughts.

    So yeah - get a gun, take some classes and practice, practice - but consider other options for basic home defense.


    Ron

  5. #35

    Evolving Lead Puffer Fish billhud's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by RGD View Post
    - it's not like on TV where some drywall and a hollow core door stop the bullet's - they are going to keep on going through that wall or couch and maybe hit somebody on the other side.
    Load frangibles in handguns for home defense. I used to use Glaser Safety Slugs. Now I use MagSafe
    "A man who is good enough to shed his blood for his country is good enough to be given a square deal afterwards. More than that no man is entitled, and less than that no man shall have." --- [SIZE=2]Theodore Roosevelt, 4 July 1903[/SIZE]

  6. #36

    Full grown Puffer Fish chupacabrah's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by billhud View Post
    Load frangibles in handguns for home defense. I used to use Glaser Safety Slugs. Now I use MagSafe

    what's a frangible?


    I've been considering all of the device in this thread....which there is LOTS of good advice.

    I've been thinking about waiting on the shotgun and getting something like a Ruger SP101 .357 mag w/ a 2" barrel, something short, that I could have at home in the event its needed, but when I get my CCW at some point I could then carry it also.

    also, I would probably get to the range more with the handgun than I would with the shotgun. and Susan (fiance) could probably use it easier being she's of small build (5" tall).

    and I could practice w/ the .38 specials which would make practice less expensive for me.


    oh, and RGD, I have 2 dogs-- a 90 lb chocolate lab with a mean bark, and a 4 month old black lab mix. not mean dogs at all, but they sound pretty vicious, esp when they are startled. They also dont like strangers until they see susan or i let them know it is ok.


    also sidenote, I won't purchase until after I have my tax return, and apply for a permit.
    -Jon

  7. #37

    OUT TO LUNCH okierock's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    A 357 mag will shoot through the door, interior wall, exterior wall, neighbors wall, neighbor, etc etc.

    Not IMO a good "home defense" weapon. They are great fun and will knock down an elephant but could get you into a lot of trouble.

    A plain ole remington 870 12ga with a short barrel would be my first choice for home defense.
    If at first you don't succeed.... your skydiving days are over.

  8. #38

    Full grown Puffer Fish chupacabrah's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by okierock View Post
    A 357 mag will shoot through the door, interior wall, exterior wall, neighbors wall, neighbor, etc etc.

    Not IMO a good "home defense" weapon. They are great fun and will knock down an elephant but could get you into a lot of trouble.

    A plain ole remington 870 12ga with a short barrel would be my first choice for home defense.
    ohh, i'd get a shotgun at some point too.
    what about .38 spl rounds for in the house? or some of those rounds like the other guys were talking about above, so to not blow holes in everything?

    honestly I'm still up in the air, just trying to figure what would be best to get first, as i probably wouldnt be able to buy but one firearm per year
    -Jon

  9. #39

    RGD
    RGD is offline
    Elder Jungle Leader - Not RGD's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by chupacabrah View Post
    what's a frangible?
    "Frangibles" are bullets that self frag - i.e. come apart on impact. There are, as always, two camps on them. One side believes in them and the other of course does not. On the one hand the theory is great - they don't bounce off objects and/or go through multiple walls, etc. They are intended to strike a person and pretty much stop there. On the other hand the argument is that the chance of them striking an arm or even heavy clothing is great, not penetrating and will require you to have multiple strikes in order to stop your target.

    Your decision - I suggest doing some research and making up your own mind on them. They are not cheap.


    . . . and Susan (fiance) could probably use it easier being she's of small build (5" tall).
    5 inches tall?? Are you like Tom Thumb or what -


    oh, and RGD, I have 2 dogs-- a 90 lb chocolate lab with a mean bark, and a 4 month old black lab mix. not mean dogs at all, but they sound pretty vicious, esp when they are startled. They also dont like strangers until they see susan or i let them know it is ok.

    There ya go - so now you just need a gun for fun huh -

  10. #40

    Full grown Puffer Fish chupacabrah's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by RGD View Post
    5 inches tall?? Are you like Tom Thumb or what -


    hahaha i missed that. 5 FOOT tall! I'm 6'2", she comes up to my armpit, lol.


    hmm i'll have to do some reading on the frangibles. I think primarily my decision will be made in the store/on a range, where Susan and I can both hold the guns and see what seems to make the most sense.
    -Jon

  11. #41

    I need a herf GoodFella's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    i use a 38 spl as my 2nd ccw and they are nice. a 38spl in a small fram gun like a S&W 442 will leave a little slap in your hand. i use 38spl+p (more power) for practise and defence that will leave your hand hurting after a box. the thing about them is you can controll a 38 better then a 357 unless your a real pro. most gun expert will tell you to just go with a 38 over a 357. ammo is cheaper also. a 357 is a fun gun with lots of power but for peice of mind 38spl+p is all you need. when it comes to choosing that perfect bullet for personal def. dont be cheap, do your home work, and shoot them every once in a while. my ammo i ccw with is federal for the most part.

  12. #42

    Full grown Puffer Fish ShaulWolf's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    I personally like the HK USP .45. The recoil wasn't bad at all, and when I shot my friend's USP Compact it felt really nice. For me half of owning a firearm is how it feels. If you own a $1,000+ handgun but it just doesn't feel or fit right in your hands, then it's pointless. I didn't like the way my friend's Glock felt in my hand, and had hell drawing it quickly, correctly, and firing it accurately because it just didn't sit right in my hands. Though, for him, the Glock was perfect, and he was flawless in drawing, aiming, and firing. The USP Compact was great for me because it fit my hands perfectly. Every time I drew it I was on target, center of mass, without even having to fully aim. It felt comfortable enough that I knew where it was aiming from just holding it out. Of course, to really be accurate I'd have to aim it, but you get the idea.

    As for the caliber you use... That's something that'll always be in debate. Small but fast rounds (9mm) or big and slow rounds (.45).
    • A 9mm will usually hold more ammo per magazine (unless your state limits mag capacity)
    • 9mm generally has less felt recoil
    • 9mm tends to penetrate but not knock down
    • .45 will knock a man down with the first or second round
    • .45 generally has more felt recoil
    • .45 may hold less ammo per mag


    However...
    • Double stack mags allow a .45 to hold up to 12 rounds per mag, so mag capacity isn't a major issue
    • 9mm hollowpoints will do massive damage and knock a person down with premium ammo
    • .45 hollowpoints will do the same as a 9mm, and more


    Honestly, I'm biased towards the .45, but that's my personal preference. The HK USP holds at least 10 rounds per mag, and the felt recoil is relatively low compared to other .45's. I also liked the Sig 220, and there's a more compact version of it, the Sig 245. The only problems I had with the 220 is how it felt heavier than the USP. Another downfall to the handguns I've mentioned is their price. Expect to pay at a minimum of $750-850 for a new Sig or HK.

    Other choices are the Springfield XD, Glock, or one of many 1911 remakes. The only thing I don't like about the XD and Glocks are the trigger safeties. They feel strange for me because it requires me to squeeze on a small lever in the middle of the trigger to disengage a safety before I actually squeeze the trigger. It throws my shots off each and every time, but it has no effect for some of my friends. The 1911 is a great weapon, but I don't like the 7 round mag. Though, if you hit your mark the first and second time, you shouldn't need the other 5... but things happen and you never know.

    If you haven't but can, go to a gun shop and rent out a few handguns. Talk to the owner, he should be able to help out a lot. Find what feels comfortable for you, what fits your needs, and what you can afford.
    Last edited by ShaulWolf; 02-06-2008 at 10:09 PM.

  13. #43

    Full grown Puffer Fish chupacabrah's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaulWolf View Post
    I personally like the HK USP .45. The recoil wasn't bad at all, and when I shot my friend's USP Compact it felt really nice. For me half of owning a firearm is how it feels. If you own a $1,000+ handgun but it just doesn't feel or fit right in your hands, then it's pointless. I didn't like the way my friend's Glock felt in my hand, and had hell drawing it quickly, correctly, and firing it accurately because it just didn't sit right in my hands. Though, for him, the Glock was perfect, and he was flawless in drawing, aiming, and firing. The USP Compact was great for me because it fit my hands perfectly. Every time I drew it I was on target, center of mass, without even having to fully aim. It felt comfortable enough that I knew where it was aiming from just holding it out. Of course, to really be accurate I'd have to aim it, but you get the idea.

    As for the caliber you use... That's something that'll always be in debate. Small but fast rounds (9mm) or big and slow rounds (.45).
    • A 9mm will usually hold more ammo per magazine (unless your state limits mag capacity)
    • 9mm generally has less felt recoil
    • 9mm tends to penetrate but not knock down
    • .45 will knock a man down with the first or second round
    • .45 generally has more felt recoil
    • .45 may hold less ammo per mag

    However...
    • Double stack mags allow a .45 to hold up to 12 rounds per mag, so mag capacity isn't a major issue
    • 9mm hollowpoints will do massive damage and knock a person down with premium ammo
    • .45 hollowpoints will do the same as a 9mm, and more

    Honestly, I'm biased towards the .45, but that's my personal preference. The HK USP holds at least 10 rounds per mag, and the felt recoil is relatively low compared to other .45's. I also liked the Sig 220, and there's a more compact version of it, the Sig 245. The only problems I had with the 220 is how it felt heavier than the USP. Another downfall to the handguns I've mentioned is their price. Expect to pay at a minimum of $750-850 for a new Sig or HK.

    Other choices are the Springfield XD, Glock, or one of many 1911 remakes. The only thing I don't like about the XD and Glocks are the trigger safeties. They feel strange for me because it requires me to squeeze on a small lever in the middle of the trigger to disengage a safety before I actually squeeze the trigger. It throws my shots off each and every time, but it has no effect for some of my friends. The 1911 is a great weapon, but I don't like the 7 round mag. Though, if you hit your mark the first and second time, you shouldn't need the other 5... but things happen and you never know.

    If you haven't but can, go to a gun shop and rent out a few handguns. Talk to the owner, he should be able to help out a lot. Find what feels comfortable for you, what fits your needs, and what you can afford.

    Okay, this makes sense, but what about the .40 round? I know before it was mentioned the perceived recoil in the .40 was greater than that of a .45 though.

    .380 a decent round? too small to knock someone down though. probably better for concealed carry?

    If I do semi-auto, I'm thinking 9mm should be the way to go. I've shot my brother's glock 9mm, and i remember thinking it had a strong kick. it's been a while though, and I'm sure with practice I could get used to whatever size round i decide to go with.

    likewise, with a revolver, i still think .357m would be good, so i can shoot .38spl, and still chamber .357 if i want too.

    shotgun...i'll just have to see how i like everything once i'm there. a handgun would be more accessible imo.


    with 9mm or .45, or even .40, how much would I still have to worry about shooting through walls and all that? and how much different with hollowpoints instead of regular rounds?

    I've gotta start going to hang out at the gunshop, i'm sure the guy there could educate me a lot too.
    -Jon

  14. #44

    Evolving Lead Puffer Fish billhud's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    FWIW, 9mm Parabellum would be my last choice for a cartridge.
    "A man who is good enough to shed his blood for his country is good enough to be given a square deal afterwards. More than that no man is entitled, and less than that no man shall have." --- [SIZE=2]Theodore Roosevelt, 4 July 1903[/SIZE]

  15. #45

    Full grown Puffer Fish chupacabrah's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by billhud View Post
    FWIW, 9mm Parabellum would be my last choice for a cartridge.

    how come?
    because they are more penetrating or something?


    All things considered....stopping power, safety (walls etc), cost to shoot/practice, what is the best round for semi auto?

    I would just say .45, but it gets expensive to shoot with, right?
    I don't know the price of other ammo... how does the .40 compare? .380?

    also....what of the .357 in an auto? I see that glock has a gun that shoots that...that's news to me


    revolvers, 38 spl isn't too much, so that's easy.
    Last edited by chupacabrah; 02-07-2008 at 09:28 AM.
    -Jon

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