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Help with guns...

This is a discussion on Help with guns... within the Guns and Knives forums, part of the Everything But Cigars category; Originally Posted by chupacabrah how come? because they are more penetrating or something? All things considered....stopping power, safety (walls etc), ...

  
  1. #46

    Alpha Puffer Fish WyoBob's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by chupacabrah View Post
    how come?
    because they are more penetrating or something?

    All things considered....stopping power, safety (walls etc), cost to shoot/practice, what is the best round for semi auto?

    I would just say .45, but it gets expensive to shoot with, right?
    I don't know the price of other ammo... how does the .40 compare? .380?

    also....what of the .357 in an auto? I see that glock has a gun that shoots that...that's news to me

    revolvers, 38 spl isn't too much, so that's easy.
    If I were a bad guy, I'd worry more about the guy who bough a 9mm, practiced a lot and perhaps had training than a guy who bought a 45, loaded the mag, never fired it and stuck it in a drawer. (Happens a lot. I think this is where most "snubbies" disappear to. I have a good friend who showed me his Taurus that shoots .410/ 45's (the Judge?) It was in a drawer, loaded. He'd never shot it. I emptied the cylinder and cycled the gun and it "locked up". (This is the third, brand new Taurus revolver I've seen that malfunctioned right off the bat.) How effective do you thing this man and his weapon would have been in a crisis situation?

    The caliber debates go on all the time on the gun forums. If you're new to handguns, buy something you can afford to practice with. IMO, that would be the 9mm. Due to advances in bullet design over the years, the spread in performance between 9, 40 and 45 has become narrower when it comes to self defense rounds.

    Note: none of the hangun loadings have "knockdown" power. The old saw about hitting someone in a finger with a .45 and seeing the guy fly backwards is a very tall tale (to be kind).

    The .357 sig auto round wouldn't be a good "first gun" caliber, IMO. Expensive, noisy and a "handfull" in some platforms (Ditto 10 mm). Glock isn't the only manufacturer of .357 Sigs, btw.

    I think a .357 revolver would be a great first handgun. Low cost of 38 Special ammo (and low recoil in a steel gun) means you'll shoot more. There are a lot of loadings in 38/38+p and .357 to choose from and, unlike semi autos, revovlers aren't "ammo sensitive" in regards to feeding different bullet sizes/shapes/weights and powder loadings (reloaded cartridges).

    I think learning to shoot a double action revolver teaches a certain amount of discipline in shot placement and accuracy. You know you have 6 shots and you better make them count as opposed to the semi-auto "spray and pray" method. Two of the best shots in my steel plate club shoot revos. We have a few semi-auto guys who load 14+ rounds of 9mm and they shoot a lot more ammo. Kind of "quantity" vs. "quality" shooters, IMO.

    Hanging around gunshops to gain knowledge: Similar to going to B&Ms and being told mold is plume or getting vehicle advice from a salesman: "Yep, this truck has the new "Hemi" diesel". A gunshop is the last place I'd go to learn about guns because the chance of finding someone who really knows what they're talking about is pretty slim and, if you're new to handguns, how will you know if you're getting good advice or "uninformed" opinion or just plain, ol' B.S.?

    I really think your best bet is to read the forums I mentioned. Yeah, you have to sort the wheat from the chaff but you'll get on to that after awhile.

    WyoBob
    WyoBob

  2. #47

    Evolving Lead Puffer Fish kjjm4's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    (minus the stupid part)

    Most of the bum rap that 9mms get is based on their performance in the hands of our military, and they use FMJ ball ammo. A 9mm with good hollowpoints is just fine as a defensive weapon, IMO.

    I also agree on the .357 magnum revolver. I own two of them. You can't beat the versatility. Load it with light .38 specials and its a great plinker/target/small game gun. With hot 125 grain hollowpoints, its a superior defensive round. With 158 grain or 180 grain bullets, it's adequate for hunting deer-sized game.

  3. #48

    Full grown Puffer Fish chupacabrah's Avatar


     

    Thumbs up Re: Help with guns...

    Thanks for the info, guys. true about the gunshop info, haha. I've been reading some in the forums you posted, I would definitely rather go into the gunshop as informed as possible.

    I'm almost positive I'll get the revolver.....for the reasons you mentioned, and my other half had problems cocking a semi-auto airsoft gun....so I imagine it would be more of the same with a real gun.

    do you think I should get a shorter barrel, like 2.25", or maybe a 4" ?
    anything longer is too cowboyish, i guess. haha


    edit:
    and when I get a semi auto in another year or so...I may get the 9mm anyway. or .40, and just shoot my brother's 9mm til then :-D
    -Jon

  4. #49

    Evolving Lead Puffer Fish FN in MT's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    KNOCK DOWN effect, or whatever You wish to call it...exists solely in the MOVIES. It does not exist in the real world.

    The second movie/TV misconception is handgun power. Handguns, at least those normally carried, such as appropriate for Military or Law Enforcement use.....Do not blow up cars, penetrate aircraft causing them to burst into flames, do NOT blow golf ball sized holes in the bad guys, and do NOT send bad guys back ten feet in mid air when hit. Truthfully most handgun rds are rather anemic.

    PLACEMENT is THE key.

    Handgun ammunition, specifically hollow point bullets have come a long ways in the past twenty years. Rem Golden Sabre, Winchester Rangers, Federal HP's CCI HP's , they all work quite well. Stay away from round nosed full metal jacket ammo that was designed to wound not do maximum damage.

    PLACEMENT is the Key.

    To be proficient You need PRACTICE. Not just blazing away at the local sandpit at a beer can as fast as You can pull the trigger. REAL instruction by a professional.

    Depending upon where You reside, using a firearm for protection of self or Family may result in long drawn out Legal problems both Criminal and CIVIL. In modern America...Defend yourself with a firearm and 99 out of 100 times You WILL be sued. Again....something You don't see on TV or the movies.

    FN in MT

  5. #50

    Full grown Puffer Fish ShaulWolf's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    Being able to shoot accurately is a huge thing... which takes practice. I personally don't mind the 9mm, but I prefer the .45 over it. I don't know whether 'knockdown' is a myth or not, but I believe a .45 hollowpoint will take a person down harder than a 9mm hollowpoint because of the higher mass hitting the target. And in everything I've seen in videos, heard in class from the former police chief, heard in class from former officers, heard in class from soldiers back from deployment, they prefer the .45.

    Hollowpoints will have a different impact on a target versus a fully jacketed or partially jacketed round. Hollowpoints are, like the name implies, hollowed out at the tip. This allows the bullet to expand out like a mushroom once it hits a target. This mushrooming creates a larger wound cavity and amplifies damage. It also transfers more of the force and momentum from the round to the target and is more likely to either incapacitating or killing a person.

    Partially jacketed rounds will have a copper or steel jacket around a lead core. The jacket, however, only covers part of the lead core and leaves the tip exposed. When the round hits the exposed tip will flatten, deform, and cause more damage. It's more effective at bringing someone down than full metal jacketed rounds, but not as effective as hollowpoints.

    Full metal jacket rounds are just that. The lead core is completely enclosed by a copper or steel jacket. This round will penetrate with little or no deformation. This is mainly against body armor and for offensive purposes than defense.

    Here are some images. The rounded top is a full metal jacket while the flat top is a hollowpoint.



    Another look at a hollowpoint before and after.



    And the final product of a hollowpoint hitting the target. You can see why it would do more damage.


  6. #51

    Evolving Lead Puffer Fish billhud's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by chupacabrah View Post
    do you think I should get a shorter barrel, like 2.25", or maybe a 4"?
    Get a 4" barrel. Firstly, you'll also get a longer sight radius. Secondly, you'll get a bore allowing more of the energy from the burning powder column's energy/expanding gasses to be used to push the bullet out of the bore thus providing a higher muzzle velocity.
    "A man who is good enough to shed his blood for his country is good enough to be given a square deal afterwards. More than that no man is entitled, and less than that no man shall have." --- [SIZE=2]Theodore Roosevelt, 4 July 1903[/SIZE]

  7. #52

    Full grown Puffer Fish ShaulWolf's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by billhud View Post
    Get a 4" barrel. Firstly, you'll also get a longer sight radius. Secondly, you'll get a bore allowing more of the energy from the burning powder column's energy/expanding gasses to be used to push the bullet out of the bore thus providing a higher muzzle velocity.
    The man speaks truth, imho.

  8. #53

    Evolving Lead Puffer Fish FN in MT's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    ShaulWolf,

    I prefer the .45 ACP over the 9mm as well. I agree that with all things being equal, the LARGER DIAMETER rd will do more damage. No voodoo here it's all about; bullet shape, velocity, bullet diameter.

    I'd argue though regarding the "knock down power" myth. Doesn't exist. I've shot game with rds that passed through with good expansion, as well as high velocity rds that expended ALL their power within the chest cavity. Speaking RIFLE rds here with lots of velocity and lots of ft lbs of power. And I've NEVER knocked anything from small 30# antelope to 1600 pound eland off their feet. And thats using everything from deer ctg's to the .416 Rigby.

    And I've got thirty two years in LE , NEVER saw it happen.

    Not trying to argue, just adding my Two cents.

    FN in MT

  9. #54

    Full grown Puffer Fish ShaulWolf's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by FN in MT View Post
    ShaulWolf,

    I prefer the .45 ACP over the 9mm as well. I agree that with all things being equal, the LARGER DIAMETER rd will do more damage. No voodoo here it's all about; bullet shape, velocity, bullet diameter.

    I'd argue though regarding the "knock down power" myth. Doesn't exist. I've shot game with rds that passed through with good expansion, as well as high velocity rds that expended ALL their power within the chest cavity. Speaking RIFLE rds here with lots of velocity and lots of ft lbs of power. And I've NEVER knocked anything from small 30# antelope to 1600 pound eland off their feet. And thats using everything from deer ctg's to the .416 Rigby.

    And I've got thirty two years in LE , NEVER saw it happen.

    Not trying to argue, just adding my Two cents.

    FN in MT
    I'll have to concede after thinking about it for a while and talking to a friend of mine. A .45 won't spin you around and slam you into the ground, but it will cause a larger wound and has a higher chance of incapacitating/killing a person than a smaller diameter round. Does that make sense?

    More importantly than caliber, though, is like FN in MR said: placement. A full mag is useless in any caliber if you can't hit your target. The center of the chest where the center of mass is on a person holds some of the most important organs and blood vessels.

    And be prepared to deal with the legal ramifications of having shot at someone. You will go to court about it (in Charleston at least) whether it was justified or not. If it was a justified shooting you won't have any issues and it'll mainly have been to make sure that you aren't a loose cannon. FN in MT could probably give a better overview of that if someone wants; we just went over a couple cases involving shootings briefly.

  10. #55

    Puffer Fish with some spikes Bridges's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    I love my glock 23 and every other glock I've shot. Excellent guns. I want o get a 10 mil. but haven't gotten around to it. Another great one is any of the glock 45's
    "The solution to any problem - work, love, money, whatever - is to go fishing, and the worse the problem, the longer the trip should be."
    — John Gierach

  11. #56

    RGD
    RGD is offline
    Elder Jungle Leader - Not RGD's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by WyoBob View Post
    If I were a bad guy, I'd worry more about the guy who bough a 9mm, practiced a lot and perhaps had training than a guy who bought a 45, loaded the mag, never fired it and stuck it in a drawer.
    Exactly. Personally I don't have a problem with my 9mm's. I own a 45, 38, two 9mm's and a .380. The 9's are my favorites.


    . . . the 9mm. Due to advances in bullet design over the years, the spread in performance between 9, 40 and 45 has become narrower when it comes to self defense rounds.
    Yep - I keep Ranger HP +p+ in my 9's -


    . . .You know you have 6 shots and you better make them count as opposed to the semi-auto "spray and pray" method.
    WyoBob
    Or I can have 20 rounds in my Sig and make them all count -

    I subscribe to the more than enough than not enough theory. As carried - my new Sig gives me 41 rounds - the SW, 31 rounds -

    You know what Bob - I need to come and hang out with you. Camera's, guns, cigars and fishing out in God's country. Of course I don't know how to fish - but that's just a minor detail - I can fake it -


    Ron

  12. #57

    Evolving Lead Puffer Fish billhud's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    If six cartridges aren't enough in a self defense application, you need to spend more time at the range.
    "A man who is good enough to shed his blood for his country is good enough to be given a square deal afterwards. More than that no man is entitled, and less than that no man shall have." --- [SIZE=2]Theodore Roosevelt, 4 July 1903[/SIZE]

  13. #58

    RGD
    RGD is offline
    Elder Jungle Leader - Not RGD's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    Quote Originally Posted by billhud View Post
    If six cartridges aren't enough in a self defense application, you need to spend more time at the range.
    Yeah but - what if there is like a whole gaggle of them? I mean sure - six rounds takes care of the first six bad guys - but what about the other 12 marauding Uzi toting degenerates hell bent on stealing a prized NASCAR trading card collection with a Harry Gant rookie card. You'll wish you had those extra rounds then -


    Ron

  14. #59

    Full grown Puffer Fish IrishCorona's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    WyoBob speaks the truth as do others in this thread and it would be TRULY wise for those new to firearms to pay attention to said words whether your 21 or 71.

    I don't really Agree or Disagree with WyoBob's Analogie of Gun stores and B&m's. My Gun stores often have VERY & experienced persons as do my B&M's Tabak stores. Bottom line is that people are often full of ego, opinion, fear & shit...lol.

    The Caliber debates like many debates(read Politics..hehe) that play out all the time whether it be on the net or in * real life* almost always end up as a Childish and Idiotic pissing contest where all real wisdom and valid points are made in the first five responses....lol.

    I wasn't gonna chime in but here's the bottom line. Their's allot of truth to the good ole Cliches. *A .22LR on your hip is better then a .44Magnum in your gun safe*.

    One can tell me all day about the relative power of their mighty .50Ae Desert Eagle that they actually have the audacity (and ego...lol) to carry but what good is it if it jams and they can't *clear it* because it's got an incredibly strong spring?

    IME, You can't beat 9mm for Newbies........PERIOD! .357 Sig is incredible IME and it's rowdy...plain and simple. Good ole Slow moving & large mass .45Acp(John Browning was a genius) is great and it's not for everyone...period.

    Practice, Practice, Practice.
    Life is to short for hatred and bad cigars!

  15. #60

    Bax
    Bax is offline
    Horny for Zorny Bax's Avatar


     

    Re: Help with guns...

    Another nod for the 357 mag, they do make home defense rounds for them that is filled with small shot. It's like bird shot for pistols. It'll do a good bit of damage, but won't kill the neighbors.

    I've got a Taurus.357 and I love it. It's a cheap gun that shoots very well. I've never heard of problems with the taurus, but mines an older model. It might be a problem with a newer design.

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