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First Handgun?

This is a discussion on First Handgun? within the Guns and Knives forums, part of the Everything But Cigars category; Originally Posted by Bondo 440 Even after training there are new responsibilities you must live by, once you carry.. You ...

  
  1. #31

    The G.O.A.T. Jordan23's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bondo 440 View Post
    Even after training there are new responsibilities you must live by, once you carry.. You are not Dirty Harry now. If you are in the convenience store and you see the clerk getting robbed at gunpoint it's not like Television. That hero stuff is for the birds. As long as nobody's shooting.. let him take his money, get a license plate and description and leave it for the cops. Nobody gets hurt. "Comply and nobody dies" works pretty well. Except in abductions and airplane hijackings, apparently. So there are exceptions.

    Remember if you ever are holding a threat at gunpoint. Whoever calls 911 needs to explain the situation, and who the bad guy is. " the guy in the blue jacket is the good guy" .
    When the police arrive they still will handle everything by the book. They are going to disarm everybody. Follow their instructions, move slowly. Try no to fk this up.

    When I remarried, I joined my wife at her house to live. It was remarkable how many people came and went through her house. That changed fast. Getting a weapon in the house changes some things. Think about it. I mean really, you have to put thought to this. The dynamics of the home too. You have a disconnected garage full of ATVs and motorcycles. You have a gun to protect your property. But you have a light that you have to be inside the garage to turn on. Install a floodlight that can be turned on from the house so you aren't shooting at shadows, deer, or runaway 13 year old kid looking for a place to sleep.

    You will always be responsible for that weapon. If I leave my piece in the car, I take the mag in with me. So if the car is stolen, the felon is not an armed felon. Well, technically I guess he is. But he is welcome to wave the empty gun at the cops if he'd like. The other day I jumped into my wife's car to join her on an errand. As she pulled out of the driveway I said "hold on" . I reached over, shut the car off , took her keys, unlocked the front door, ran back inside for my keys. Came back out, locked the door, back into the passenger side of her car, and hand her back her keys. She looks at me. I say "only a moron locks his guns in a gun cabinet, and then leave the keys for it on the dining room table"

    This is how you have to think always, as a respectable gun owner.
    +1000 excellent post.

    This thread is full of grea advice: comfort, preference, experience, Cal and penetration choices, practice..... all play a part.

    For me carry is a springfield xd 9.

    Home is a Mossberg 12 gauge pistol grip.

    Practice is 80 percent those and a few others comprise the other 20 percent for fun.

    I would add a key self defense thought is to avoid (if possible) ever using your firearm (call the cops, give the asshole your watch or car, etc and go home to your family). Remember that's IF possible.
    "I'm sure everything will be fine if we win, but if we start losing, I'm shooting." - Michael Jordan

  2. #32

    Young Puffer Fish Ammo-Ed's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    I'm surprised no one has suggested a 380 over a 22. Plink with them all day long, fit in your pocket, load it up with hollow point for personal defense.

    That is also backed up by a Sig 45 and a Tarus 357 revolver and then the chipmunk 22.

  3. #33

    TWANGGGGG! StogieJim's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    380 huh?? Cheap ammo for plinking at the range to get really comfortable with it? 380 Hollow points is a good call for self defense.

    Do you have any recommendations on models sub $500?? Thats an interesting one Ed, thanks! Gonna look into this tonight
    "Smoking cigars is not a sign of wealth. Having the time to smoke one is." - Fellow Puff Member

  4. #34

    Elder Puffer Fish Leader David_ESM's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    I wouldn't recommend a 22 or a 380 if you intend to only have one firearm for any length of time. Both are fine for training or deep concealing, but neither would fill the role of how I view an all purpose firearm (home defense, training, concealed carry) to be.

    If you really are looking to stick to your budget but looking to have something completely reliable and have multiple options. Look at a used or police trade in glock. Sub $400 handgun in a normal and exceptionally performing round, reliable as hell. Take the remainder of your money and pick up a used Rem 870 12ga, you can find them EVERYWHERE and cheap.

    Fill the 12ga with some Federal 00 w/flight control and you have just about the finest home defense option possible.

    With some careful shopping you really should be able to do both for $550-600. Possibly less.
    Sir Reverend David_ESM Esquire, Bomb Squid Extraordinaire, the all knowledgeable one, Grand Poobah, Korean Pop Hipster, Butt Dryer, Douchebag... M.D.

  5. #35

    Leading Puffer Fish Gdaddy's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    I have an M&P compact in 357Sig as my carry weapon (can easily switch to .40 cal by switching barrels) and 'Sabre' pepper/tear gas spray as my deterrent.

    If you get a gun I would NOT go around telling anyone you've got it. Keep it to yourself. If you get your concealed permit NO ONE should know you carry it. NO ONE!!

    Secondly, I would advise carrying a small pepper spray also in your pocket. (Sabre) It is a good deterrent when used under the right circumstance and many times a much wiser choice than a gun. Pepper spray will be far more forgiving in the eyes of the law also.
    Be aware, that even if you're involved in a justified shooting and you were 'in fear of your life' you're still going for a ride down town and you'll need a lawyer to defend you. Even if George Zimmerman is found not guilty and justified his lawyer fees are astronomical. IMO..Zimmerman could have stopped the threat with pepper spray. The gun is NOT always the right tool to use.

  6. #36

    HOOAH TacticalComm's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    Prices are about to go up... Get them while you can.

    Personally, I have a Springfield XD-M 40 and an XD-M 9mm... Check them out, they have the best features of most handguns built into one design. Comes with a lot of accessories.

    http://www.tactical-life.com/online/...008/06/xdm.gif
    Proudly Serving USAF

  7. #37

    TWANGGGGG! StogieJim's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    Don, I don't plan on telling a soul brother! I also still am on the fence about carrying a gun around town. I do want to carry it when hiking in case of mountain lions and bears (Oh My! LOL) but I can just keep it in the backpack so size doesn't really matter....

    The Ruger 380LCP is on sale, seems like a nice small weapon in case I ever do get a concealed license, but I heard that ammo is expensive for it, and the trigger pull is really long. I'll check out the springfields too, thanks for the heads up! My vacation starts end of next week so I'll have time to go into a few stores and check things out.
    "Smoking cigars is not a sign of wealth. Having the time to smoke one is." - Fellow Puff Member

  8. #38

    CRT #1984, CRA #99974873 szyzk's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    Quote Originally Posted by StogieJim View Post
    Don, I don't plan on telling a soul brother! I also still am on the fence about carrying a gun around town. I do want to carry it when hiking in case of mountain lions and bears (Oh My! LOL) but I can just keep it in the backpack so size doesn't really matter....

    The Ruger 380LCP is on sale, seems like a nice small weapon in case I ever do get a concealed license, but I heard that ammo is expensive for it, and the trigger pull is really long. I'll check out the springfields too, thanks for the heads up! My vacation starts end of next week so I'll have time to go into a few stores and check things out.
    I love the 380 but it has a habit of biting some people when they shoot it, and yes, ammo is insanely expensive.

    I don't think there's a correct answer for the Glock vs. Springfield XD (and as of a few years ago vs. S&W M&P) debate, but I do know that I chose the Springfield because it felt better in the hand and I was much more comfortable with it. That's something you won't get a correct answer about from a BOTL, you have to go to the store and hold them for a while - and as others said, you're much better off shooting them before you buy. Since rental/range time is so expensive, maybe ask around at the local shop for customers who might be willing to take you out to shoot their guns if you buy the ammo. The shop owner will know who his regular, responsible and helpful customers are.
    Never trust anyone over 30.


  9. #39

    THE MAN WHO LOVES TWANG! TonyBrooklyn's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    General Julian Hatcher, a noted forensic pathologist, in the early 1900’s developed a good formula to determine the theoretical stopping power of a firearm cartridge. His formula has withstood the test of time and validation from other studies and data related to stopping power.

    You want a handgun cartridge that has a Hatcher value of over 50 for the most effective stopping power. Values over 55 have diminishing returns in that you don’t gain any significant increase in stopping power for the extra recoil and control you must cope with. Handgun cartridges that don’t make a value of at least 50, should not considered for self-defense. If the rating of your handgun cartridge is under 30, it only has about a 30% chance of producing a one shot stop. Hatcher Ratings of 30 to 49 raise a one shot stop to approximately a 50% chance. Ratings of 50 or higher produce a one shot stop about 90% of the time.

    Handgun Cartridge Type ..................... Hatcher Rating

    .45 ACP full metal jacket 230 grain .......... 49.1

    .45 ACP jacketed hollow point 230 grain ...... 60.7

    .44 Magnum full metal jacket 240 grain ....... 92.3

    *.44 Magnum lead wad cutter 240 grain ......... 136.8

    .44 Special full metal jacket 240 grain ...... 51.6

    *.44 Special lead wad cutter 240 grain ............. 76.5

    .41 Magnum full metal jacket 230 grain ............. 54

    *.41 Magnum lead wad cutter 230 grain .............. 80

    10 millimeter full metal jacket 180 grain .......... 50.3

    10 millimeter jacketed hollow point 180 grain ..62.1

    .40 S&W full metal jacket flat nose 180 grain ...... 53.4

    .40 S&W jacketed hollow point 180 grain ....... 59.4

    .38 Special full metal jacket 158 grain ...... 26.7

    *.38 Special lead wad cutter 158 grain ............. 39.7

    **.357 Magnum full metal jacket 158 grain ..... 32.7

    **.357 Magnum lead wad cutter 158 grain ............ 48.5

    .357 SIG full metal jacket 147 grain ................ 36.6

    .357 SIG jacketed hollow point 147 grain ..... 45.2

    9 millimeter full metal jacket 147 grain ............ 32.3

    9 millimeter jacketed hollow point 147 grain ... 39.9

    .380 Auto jacketed hollow point 95 grain ..... 18.3

    .32 Auto jacketed hollow point 71 grain ...... 11.1

    .25 Auto jacketed hollow point 50 grain ...... 3.7

    .22 Long Rifle jacketed hollow point 40 grain ... 4.2

    * Jacketed hollow points will have the same rating as wad cutter bullets if the bullet hollow tip is greater than 1/2 of the caliber of the bullet.

    * .357 Magnum ratings are taken from a firearm with a 3 inch barrel. Longer barrels will raise the rating of the round.
    “When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.”
    Jimi Hendrix



  10. #40

    Elder Puffer Fish Leader David_ESM's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    ^^ ^^

    The formula devised for 1910 can not be applied to modern calibers that did not exist, and modern JHP that did not exist. The formula was fine for the day but someone tinkered the hell out of it to try and create something new.

    If you are going to base your decision on what is an acceptable self defense round on some sort of study or formula, use the FBI standard.
    Sir Reverend David_ESM Esquire, Bomb Squid Extraordinaire, the all knowledgeable one, Grand Poobah, Korean Pop Hipster, Butt Dryer, Douchebag... M.D.

  11. #41

    THE MAN WHO LOVES TWANG! TonyBrooklyn's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    Percentage of people who were immediately stopped with one hit to the head or torso

    Here are the results.

    .25ACP-

    # of people shot- 68

    # of hits- 150

    % of hits that were fatal- 25%

    Average number of rounds until incapacitation- 2.2

    % of people who were not incapacitated- 35%

    One-shot-stop %- 30%

    Accuracy (head and torso hits)- 62%

    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit)- 49%



    .22 (short, long and long rifle)

    # of people shot- 154

    # of hits- 213

    % of hits that were fatal- 34%

    Average number of rounds until incapacitation- 1.38

    % of people who were not incapacitated- 31%

    One-shot-stop %- 31%

    Accuracy (head and torso hits)- 76%

    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit)- 60%


    .32 (both .32 Long and .32 ACP)

    # of people shot- 25

    # of hits- 38

    % of hits that were fatal- 21%

    Average number of rounds until incapacitation- 1.52

    % of people who were not incapacitated- 40%

    One-shot-stop %- 40%

    Accuracy (head and torso hits)- 78%

    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit)- 72%


    .380 ACP

    # of people shot- 85

    # of hits- 150

    % of hits that were fatal- 29%

    Average number of rounds until incapacitation- 1.76

    % of people who were not incapacitated- 16%

    One-shot-stop %- 44%

    Accuracy (head and torso hits)- 76%

    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit)- 62%


    .38 Special

    # of people shot- 199

    # of hits- 373

    % of hits that were fatal- 29%

    Average number of rounds until incapacitation- 1.87

    % of people who were not incapacitated- 17%

    One-shot-stop %- 39%

    Accuracy (head and torso hits)- 76%

    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit)- 55%


    9mm Luger

    # of people shot- 456

    # of hits- 1121

    % of hits that were fatal- 24%

    Average number of rounds until incapacitation- 2.45

    % of people who were not incapacitated- 13%

    One-shot-stop %- 34%

    Accuracy (head and torso hits)- 74%

    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit)- 47%


    .357 (both magnum and Sig)

    # of people shot- 105

    # of hits- 179

    % of hits that were fatal- 34%

    Average number of rounds until incapacitation- 1.7

    % of people who were not incapacitated- 9%

    One-shot-stop %- 44%

    Accuracy (head and torso hits)- 81%

    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit)- 61%


    .40 S&W

    # of people shot- 188

    # of hits- 443

    % of hits that were fatal- 25%

    Average number of rounds until incapacitation- 2.36

    % of people who were not incapacitated- 13%

    One-shot-stop %- 45%

    Accuracy (head and torso hits)- 76%

    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit)- 52%


    .45 ACP

    # of people shot- 209

    # of hits- 436

    % of hits that were fatal- 29%

    Average number of rounds until incapacitation- 2.08

    % of people who were not incapacitated- 14%

    One-shot-stop %- 39%

    Accuracy (head and torso hits)- 85%

    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit)- 51%


    .44 Magnum

    # of people shot- 24

    # of hits- 41

    % of hits that were fatal- 26%

    Average number of rounds until incapacitation- 1.71

    % of people who were not incapacitated- 13%

    One-shot-stop %- 59%

    Accuracy (head and torso hits)- 88%

    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit)- 53%


    Rifle (all Centerfire)

    # of people shot- 126

    # of hits- 176

    % of hits that were fatal- 68%

    Average number of rounds until incapacitation- 1.4

    % of people who were not incapacitated- 9%

    One-shot-stop %- 58%

    Accuracy (head and torso hits)- 81%

    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit)- 80%


    Shotgun (All, but 90% of results were 12 gauge)

    # of people shot- 146

    # of hits- 178

    % of hits that were fatal- 65%

    Average number of rounds until incapacitation- 1.22

    % of people who were not incapacitated- 12%

    One-shot-stop %- 58%

    Accuracy (head and torso hits)- 84%

    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit)- 86%
    “When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.”
    Jimi Hendrix



  12. #42

    THE MAN WHO LOVES TWANG! TonyBrooklyn's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    These charts i have provided you with Jim are a basic outline of what most gun owners hold as fact. There are many ignorant to the basic theories involved as to how these statistics are derived. The 2nd chart as the first is a guideline to help you decide what is best for you nothing more. Anyone that would base his decision on what somebody else has written is a lunatic. And remember the best gun for you is the one you will always carry and practice with! Hope these findings help rather than confuse!
    Peace my brother!
    “When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.”
    Jimi Hendrix



  13. #43

    Leading Puffer Fish Slowpokebill's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    Which reminds me of something I learned long ago. Your sidearm is there just to give you time to get to your rifle.

    BTW, my feeling is if you punch a near 1/2 inch hole in something it is likely to die. Big bullets are better.

  14. #44

    THE MAN WHO LOVES TWANG! TonyBrooklyn's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    Got one more for you Jim i love research lol!
    And i agree with you Bill bigger holes are better!

    Top loads for each caliber
    Brand Bullet Shootings One Shot Stops Percent Diameter Penetration
    Federal 308 168 gr Match 112 110 98% 0" 24.9"
    Remington 223 69 gr JHP 40 39 98% 0.32" 16.9"
    Federal 357 Magnum 125 gr JHP 641 615 96% 0.74" 11.1"
    Federal 45 ACP 230 gr HS 173 166 96% 0.76" 13.9"
    PMC 30-30 150 gr SF 44 42 95% 0.53" 19.6"
    Remington 40 S&W 165 gr GS 146 137 94% 0.7" 13.9"
    Remington 45 ACP +P 185 gr JHP 77 71 92% 0.74" 12.9"
    Winchester 44 Magnum 210 gr JHP 71 65 92% 0.81" 16.3"
    Federal 357 SIG 125 gr JHP 24 22 92% 0.62" 12.3"
    Federal 9 mm +P+ 115 gr JHP 189 172 91% 0.71" 13.9"
    Winchester 41 Magnum 170 gr ST 61 55 90% 0.68" 14.9"
    Federal 10 mm 155 gr JHP 20 18 90% 0.73" 12.4"
    Speer 9 mm +P 124 gr GD 74 65 88% 0.71" 13.6"
    Winchester 30 Carbine 110 gr JSP 43 38 88% 0.42" 0"
    Winchester 9 mm 115 gr ST 421 349 83% 0.64" 13.7"
    Federal 45 Colt 225 gr LHP 36 29 81% 0.51" 14.9"
    Winchester 38 Special +P+ 110 gr JHP 49 39 80% 0.64" 12.1"
    Remington 38 Special +P 125 gr GS 10 8 80% 0.68" 12.4"
    Winchester 44 Special 200 gr ST 70 53 76% 0.58" 13.8"
    Federal 380 ACP 90 HS 96 68 71% 0.56" 9.4"
    Winchester 32 ACP gr ST 151 99 66% 0.41" 9.2"
    Federal 38 Special 129 gr HS 77 50 65% 0.56" 10.2"
    CCI Stinger 22 LR HP 465 178 38% 0.28" 7.3"
    Winchester 25 ACP gr Expanding Point 204 55 27% 0.3" 8.9"

    BT = Black Talon GS = Golden Saber GD = Gold Dot
    HS = Hydra Shok ST = Silvertip LRN = Lead Round Nose
    SWC = Semi Wadcutter JHP = Jacketed Hollow Point FMJ = Full Metal Jacket
    Diameter and Penetration are the average from bullets recovered in actual shootings. All data taken from Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow's book: Stopping Power: A Practical Analysis of the Latest Handgun Ammunition and used with permission from the author.
    “When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.”
    Jimi Hendrix



  15. #45

    THE MAN WHO LOVES TWANG! TonyBrooklyn's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    Ammo Prices

    Pistol Caliber Stopping Power stats
    james April 17, 2011 0
    Top loads for each caliber
    Brand Bullet Shootings One Shot Stops Percent Diameter Penetration
    Federal 357 Magnum 125 gr JHP 641 615 96% 0.74″ 11.1″
    Federal 45 ACP 230 gr HS 173 166 96% 0.76″ 13.9″
    Remington 40 S&W 165 gr GS 146 137 94% 0.7″ 13.9″
    Remington 45 ACP +P 185 gr JHP 77 71 92% 0.74″ 12.9″
    Winchester 44 Magnum 210 gr JHP 71 65 92% 0.81″ 16.3″
    Federal 357 SIG 125 gr JHP 24 22 92% 0.62″ 12.3″
    Federal 9 mm +P+ 115 gr JHP 189 172 91% 0.71″ 13.9″
    Winchester 41 Magnum 170 gr ST 61 55 90% 0.68″ 14.9″
    Federal 10 mm 155 gr JHP 20 18 90% 0.73″ 12.4″
    Speer 9 mm +P 124 gr GD 74 65 88% 0.71″ 13.6″
    Winchester 9 mm 115 gr ST 421 349 83% 0.64″ 13.7″
    Federal 45 Colt 225 gr LHP 36 29 81% 0.51″ 14.9″
    Winchester 38 Special +P+ 110 gr JHP 49 39 80% 0.64″ 12.1″
    Remington 38 Special +P 125 gr GS 10 8 80% 0.68″ 12.4″
    Winchester 44 Special 200 gr ST 70 53 76% 0.58″ 13.8″
    Federal 380 ACP 90 HS 96 68 71% 0.56″ 9.4″
    Winchester 32 ACP gr ST 151 99 66% 0.41″ 9.2″
    Federal 38 Special 129 gr HS 77 50 65% 0.56″ 10.2″
    CCI Stinger 22 LR HP 465 178 38% 0.28″ 7.3″
    Winchester 25 ACP gr Expanding Point 204 55 27% 0.3″ 8.9″
    “When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.”
    Jimi Hendrix



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