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First Handgun?

This is a discussion on First Handgun? within the Guns and Knives forums, part of the Everything But Cigars category; ...

  
  1. #46

    THE MAN WHO LOVES TWANG! TonyBrooklyn's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    Handgun Ammo Stopping Power

    All of us have been exposed to the varying theories regarding which type of handgun bullet is best for defensive purposes. Some proponents (Dr. Julian Hatcher) believed that "bigger is better" while the National Institute of Justice performed a "computer man" study a number of years ago which suggested that light and fast bullets achieved the most lethal results.

    As more and more data becomes available, theories change. Evan Marshall wrote definitive studies in 1992, 1996 and 2000 after examining the results of thousands of actual shootings. His conclusions came as a result of actual shootings and not from firing bullets into wet newspaper, gelatin or some other artificial medium.edium.

    His data is based on "one shot stops". This is defined as: 1. a single hit to anywhere on the body not counting the head, neck or extremity shot: 2. when a subject stops shooting or striking blows if that was what he was doing and 3. runs no more than 10 feet before collapsing. In other words, Marshall’s studies examine what happens in the first few seconds after a shooting.

    In the past decade, major advances have been made in bullet design which adds to the lethality of the projectile. Every major US bullet manufacturer has their own proprietary projective which they claim is best for the job at hand. New calibers such as the 357 SIG have appeared on the scene while more data has been accumulated on relatively new bullets such as the 40 Smith & Wesson. Marshall’s newest study takes these events into consideration.

    32 ACP - Most of the smaller caliber firearms such as this caliber and the .380 ACP are carried as "back-up" guns by law enforcement thus the increase in data from actual police shootings. The CorBon 62 gr. JHP round was involved in 17 shootings with 11 one shot stops which achieved a 65% rating followed closely by the Winchester 60 grain Silvertip which was fired 162 times and caused 104 stops for a 64% rating. The Federal 65 grain Hydra-Shok and the CCI 60 grain Gold Dot achieved one shot stops 63% and 60% of the time.

    380 ACP - The top rounds in this category were the Federal 90 grain Hydra-Shok and the CorBon 90 grain JHP+P which both rated a 70% one shot stop rating. While Federal 90 grain FMJ ammo was used in a whopping 245 shootings, it only achieved 55% one shot stops.

    38 Special - With the introduction of semi-auto pistols, this caliber was relegated to secondary status. This data is from 2 and 3 inch revolvers which limit muzzle velocity & therefore results are less than other comparable calibers. Both the Winchester and Federal 158 grain LHP+P offerings were involved in 158 shootings with the Winchester round making 121 single shot stops for a 68% rating and the Federal loading making 120 one shot stops for a 67% rating. Most all of the 16 loadings examined fell in the 60 percent range with the Federal 125 grain Nyclad LHP+P round earning a 61% rating. It’s clear than the long-used 158 grain lead hollowpoint pushed to +P pressures is the best round for this caliber.

    357 Magnum - Once the king of law enforcement handguns, this caliber has also been replaced by large capacity auto-pistols. The data collected for this caliber came from 2 and 3 inch revolvers, not the longer barreled type. The top round was the Remington 124 grain JHP followed by the same loading by Federal. Both loads achieved a 91% one hit stop rating. Most other loads ranked in the 80% area with the Federal 158 grain Hydra-Shok achieving a 78% rating.

    357 SIG - This is the most current law enforcement cartridge and therefore, shooting data is limited. The top rated cartridges were the Remington and Federal 125 grain JHPs. Both were rated at 91% one shot stops. Of the 9 loads evaluated, the poorest was the Federal 158 grain Hydra-Shok which was involved in 41 shootings with 32 one shot stops for a 78% rating.

    9mm - This was the first semiauto pistol to be used extensively by police agencies and replaced the 38 Special and 357 Magnum round. Early loadings of the 147 grain round caused major stopping problems however current 147 grain designs are vastly superior. Clearly the best 9mm loads are those driven to +P+ pressures. Of the 20 loadings evaluated, the top load was the Federal 115 grain JHP +P+ involved in 209 shootings with 190 one shot stops for a 91% rating. The Winchester 115 grain JHP +P+ and 127 grain Ranger SXT +P+ both had 90% one shot stops. All five loads driven to +P+ pressures ranked in the top 5 followed by all bullets loaded to +P pressures. Rounds manufactured to standard pressure ratings comprised the bottom 12 loadings in the study.

    40 S&W - This caliber has become extremely popular with law enforcement agencies due to the perceived deficiencies of the 9mm round. All manufacturers have at least 2 loadings of this caliber and it has served very well. The Remington 165 grain Golden Saber was used in 311 shootings and made 292 one shot stops for a 94% rating followed closely by the CCI 165 and 155 grain loadings and the Federal 155 grain Hydra-Shok bullet. These 3 loads made 93% one shot stops. Other manufacturers loads in the 90% range were the Federal 155 grain JHP and the CorBon 135 and 150 grain JHP bullets. Thirteen other loadings were evaluated with the poorest being the Winchester 180 grain FMJ that was involved in 134 encounters and made 95 (71%) one shot stops.

    45 ACP - This caliber has been around for almost 100 years and is still the top rated round. More police agencies are using this round due to its proven stopping ability. The large diameter, heavy bullet is the basis for the "momentum" theory of stopping power however actual results in shootings show a mix of "light and fast" and "slow and heavy" rounds. The Remington 185 grain Golden Saber was involved in 148 shootings and caused 142 one shot stops for a 96% rating followed closely by the Federal 230 grain Hydra-Shok which caused 200 one shot stops in 211 shootings for a 95% rating. Eight of the 16 loadings examined rated above 90% one shot stops while 5 others rated in the 80s. The poorest stoppers were the Remington, Federal and Winchester 230 grain FMJ rounds which achieved 62% one shot stops.

    It’s difficult to say that one type of bullet is best for all calibers and, in fact, these study results show that the best results come from a mix of heavy to light bullets which defy most theories. It is clear however that some loadings are much better than others and the decision is ours with respect to which we choose.
    “When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.”
    Jimi Hendrix



  2. #47

    THE MAN WHO LOVES TWANG! TonyBrooklyn's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    And if all of that isn't confusing enough here is some more!LOL!

    Test Data:



    “When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.”
    Jimi Hendrix



  3. #48

    THE MAN WHO LOVES TWANG! TonyBrooklyn's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    e » Content An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

    printable page
    Submitted by cbaus on Fri, 07/08/2011 - 14:00.

    by Greg Ellifritz
    I've been interested in firearm stopping power for a very long time. I remember reading Handguns magazine back in the late 1980s when Evan Marshall was writing articles about his stopping power studies. When Marshall's first book came out in 1992, I ordered it immediately, despite the fact that I was a college student and really couldn't afford its $39 price tag. Over the years I bought all of the rest of Marshall's books as well as anything else I could find on the subject. I even have a first edition of Gunshot Injuries by Louis Lagarde published in 1915.
    Are any of these better than another?

    Every source I read has different recommendations. Some say Marshall's data is genius. Some say it is statistically impossible. Some like big heavy bullets. Some like lighter, faster bullets. There isn't any consensus. The more I read, the more confused I get.
    One thing I remember reading that made a lot of sense to me was an article by Massad Ayoob. He came out with his own stopping power data around the time Marshall published Handgun Stopping Power. In the article, Ayoob took his critics to task. He suggested that if people didn't believe his data, they should collect their own and do their own analysis. That made sense to me. So that's just what I did. I always had a slight problem with the methodology of Marshall and Sanow's work. For consistency purposes, they ONLY included hits to the torso and ONLY included cases where the person was hit with just a single round. Multiple hits screwed up their data, so they excluded them. This led to an unrealistically high stopping power percentage, because it factored out many of the cases where a person didn't stop! I wanted to look at hits anywhere on the body and get a realistic idea of actual stopping power, no matter how many hits it took to get it. So I started collecting data.
    Over a 10-year period, I kept track of stopping power results from every shooting I could find. I talked to the participants of gunfights, read police reports, attended autopsies, and scoured the newspapers, magazines, and Internet for any reliable accounts of what happened to the human body when it was shot.
    I documented all of the data I could; tracking caliber, type of bullet (if known), where the bullet hit and whether or not the person was incapacitated. I also tracked fatalities, noting which bullets were more likely to kill and which were not. It was an exhaustive project, but I'm glad I did it and I'm happy to report the results of my study here.
    Before I get to the details, I must give a warning. I don't have any dog in this fight! I don't sell ammo. I'm not being paid by any firearm or ammunition manufacturer. I carry a lot of different pistols for self defense. Within the last 2 weeks, I've carried a .22 magnum, a .380 auto, a .38 spl revolver, 3 different 9mm autos and a .45 auto. I don't have an axe to grind. If you are happy with your 9mm, I'm happy for you. If you think that everyone should be carrying a .45 (because they don't make a .46), I'm cool with that too. I'm just reporting the data. If you don't like it, take Mr. Ayoob's advice...do a study of your own.
    A few notes on terminology...
    Since it was my study, I got to determine the variables and their definitions. Here's what I looked at:
    - Number of people shot
    - Number of rounds that hit
    - On average, how many rounds did it take for the person to stop his violent action or be incapacitated? For this number, I included hits anywhere on the body. To be considered an immediate incapacitation, I used criteria similar to Marshall's. If the attacker was striking or shooting the victim, the round needed to immediately stop the attack without another blow being thrown or shot being fired. If the person shot was in the act of running (either towards or away from the shooter), he must have fallen to the ground within five feet.
    I also excluded all cases of accidental shootings or suicides. Every shot in this study took place during a military battle or an altercation with a criminal.
    - What percentage of shooting incidents resulted in fatalities. For this, I included only hits to the head or torso.
    - What percentage of people were not incapacitated no matter how many rounds hit them
    - Accuracy. What percentage of hits was in the head or torso. I tracked this to check if variations could affect stopping power. For example, if one caliber had a huge percentage of shootings resulting in arm hits, we may expect that the stopping power of that round wouldn’t look as good as a caliber where the majority of rounds hit the head.
    - One shot stop percentage - number of incapacitations divided by the number of hits the person took. Like Marshall's number, I only included hits to the torso or head in this number.
    - Percentage of people who were immediately stopped with one hit to the head or torso
    “When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.”
    Jimi Hendrix



  4. #49

    THE MAN WHO LOVES TWANG! TonyBrooklyn's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    Gotta post in two parts to much for one post!

    Here are the results.
    .25ACP # of people shot - 68
    # of hits - 150
    % of hits that were fatal - 25%
    Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.2
    % of people who were not incapacitated - 35%
    One-shot-stop % - 30%
    Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 62%
    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 49% .22 (short, long and long rifle) # of people shot - 154
    # of hits - 213
    % of hits that were fatal - 34%
    Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.38
    % of people who were not incapacitated - 31%
    One-shot-stop % - 31%
    Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 60%
    .32 (both .32 Long and .32 ACP) # of people shot - 25
    # of hits - 38
    % of hits that were fatal - 21%
    Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.52
    % of people who were not incapacitated - 40%
    One-shot-stop % - 40%
    Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 78%
    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 72% .380 ACP # of people shot - 85
    # of hits - 150
    % of hits that were fatal - 29%
    Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.76
    % of people who were not incapacitated - 16%
    One-shot-stop % - 44%
    Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 62%
    .38 Special # of people shot - 199
    # of hits - 373
    % of hits that were fatal - 29%
    Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.87
    % of people who were not incapacitated - 17%
    One-shot-stop % - 39%
    Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 55% 9mm Luger # of people shot - 456
    # of hits - 1121
    % of hits that were fatal - 24%
    Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.45
    % of people who were not incapacitated - 13%
    One-shot-stop % - 34%
    Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 74%
    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 47%
    .357 (both magnum and Sig) # of people shot - 105
    # of hits - 179
    % of hits that were fatal - 34%
    Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.7
    % of people who were not incapacitated - 9%
    One-shot-stop % - 44%
    Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 81%
    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 61% .40 S&W # of people shot - 188
    # of hits - 443
    % of hits that were fatal - 25%
    Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.36
    % of people who were not incapacitated - 13%
    One-shot-stop % - 45%
    Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 52%
    .45 ACP # of people shot - 209
    # of hits - 436
    % of hits that were fatal - 29%
    Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.08
    % of people who were not incapacitated - 14%
    One-shot-stop % - 39%
    Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 85%
    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 51% .44 Magnum # of people shot - 24
    # of hits - 41
    % of hits that were fatal - 26%
    Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.71
    % of people who were not incapacitated - 13%
    One-shot-stop % - 59%
    Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 88%
    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 53%
    Rifle (all Centerfire) # of people shot - 126
    # of hits - 176
    % of hits that were fatal - 68%
    Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.4
    % of people who were not incapacitated - 9%
    One-shot-stop % - 58%
    Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 81%
    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 80% Shotgun (All, but 90% of results were 12 gauge) # of people shot - 146
    # of hits - 178
    % of hits that were fatal - 65%
    Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.22
    % of people who were not incapacitated - 12%
    One-shot-stop % - 58%
    Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 84%
    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 86%
    Discussion
    I really would have liked to break it down by individual bullet type, but I didn't have enough data points to reach a level of statistical significance. Getting accurate data on nearly 1800 shootings was hard work. I couldn't imagine breaking it down farther than what I did here. I also believe the data for the .25, .32 and .44 magnum should be viewed with suspicion. I simply don't have enough data (in comparison to the other calibers) to draw an accurate comparison. I reported the data I have, but I really don't believe that a .32 ACP incapacitates people at a higher rate than the .45 ACP!
    One other thing to look at is the 9mm data. A huge number (over half) of 9mm shootings involved ball ammo. I think that skewed the results of the study in a negative manner. One can reasonable expect that FMJ ammo will not stop as well as a state of the art expanding bullet. I personally believe that the 9mm is a better stopper than the numbers here indicate, but you can make that decision for yourself based on the data presented.


    Some interesting findings:
    I think the most interesting statistic is the percentage of people who stopped with one shot to the torso or head. There wasn't much variation between calibers. Between the most common defensive calibers (.38, 9mm, .40, and .45) there was a spread of only eight percentage points. No matter what gun you are shooting, you can only expect a little more than half of the people you shoot to be immediately incapacitated by your first hit.
    The average number of rounds until incapacitation was also remarkably similar between calibers. All the common defensive calibers required around 2 rounds on average to incapacitate. Something else to look at here is the question of how fast can the rounds be fired out of each gun. The .38 SPL probably has the slowest rate of fire (long double action revolver trigger pulls and stout recoil in small revolvers) and the fewest rounds fired to get an incapacitation (1.87). Conversely the 9mm can probably be fired fastest of the common calibers and it had the most rounds fired to get an incapacitation (2.45). The .40 (2.36) and the .45 (2.0 split the difference. It is my personal belief that there really isn't much difference between each of these calibers. It is only the fact that some guns can be fired faster than others that causes the perceived difference in stopping power. If a person takes an average of 5 seconds to stop after being hit, the defender who shoots a lighter recoiling gun can get more hits in that time period. It could be that fewer rounds would have stopped the attacker (given enough time) but the ability to fire more quickly resulted in more hits being put onto the attacker. It may not have anything to do with the stopping power of the round.
    Another data piece that leads me to believe that the majority of commonly carried defensive rounds are similar in stopping power is the fact that all four have very similar failure rates. If you look at the percentage of shootings that did not result in incapacitation, the numbers are almost identical. The .38, 9mm, .40, and .45 all had failure rates of between 13% and 17%.


    Some people will look at this data and say "He's telling us all to carry .22s". That's not true. Although this study showed that the percentages of people stopped with one shot are similar between almost all handgun cartridges, there's more to the story. Take a look at two numbers: the percentage of people who did not stop (no matter how many rounds were fired into them) and the one-shot-stop percentage. The lower caliber rounds (.22, .25, .32) had a failure rate that was roughly double that of the higher caliber rounds. The one-shot-stop percentage (where I considered all hits, anywhere on the body) trended generally higher as the round gets more powerful. This tells us a couple of things...
    In a certain (fairly high) percentage of shootings, people stop their aggressive actions after being hit with one round regardless of caliber or shot placement. These people are likely NOT physically incapacitated by the bullet. They just don't want to be shot anymore and give up! Call it a psychological stop if you will. Any bullet or caliber combination will likely yield similar results in those cases. And fortunately for us, there are a lot of these "psychological stops" occurring. The problem we have is when we don't get a psychological stop. If our attacker fights through the pain and continues to victimize us, we might want a round that causes the most damage possible. In essence, we are relying on a "physical stop" rather than a "psychological" one. In order to physically force someone to stop their violent actions we need to either hit him in the Central Nervous System (brain or upper spine) or cause enough bleeding that he becomes unconscious. The more powerful rounds look to be better at doing this.
    One other factor to consider is that the majority of these shootings did NOT involve shooting through intermediate barriers, cover or heavy clothing. If you anticipate having to do this in your life (i.e. you are a police officer and may have to shoot someone in a car), again, I would lean towards the larger or more powerful rounds.
    What I believe that my numbers show is that in the majority of shootings, the person shot merely gives up without being truly incapacitated by the bullet. In such an event, almost any bullet will perform admirably. If you want to be prepared to deal with someone who won't give up so easily, or you want to be able to have good performance even after shooting through an intermediate barrier, I would skip carrying the "mouse gun" .22s, .25s and .32s.
    Now compare the numbers of the handgun calibers with the numbers generated by the rifles and shotguns. For me there really isn't a stopping power debate. All handguns suck! If you want to stop someone, use a rifle or shotgun!
    What matters even more than caliber is shot placement. Across all calibers, if you break down the incapacitations based on where the bullet hit you will see some useful information.
    Head shots = 75% immediate incapacitation
    Torso shots = 41% immediate incapacitation
    Extremity shots (arms and legs) = 14% immediate incapacitation.
    No matter which caliber you use, you have to hit something important in order to stop someone!

    Conclusion
    This study took me a long time and a lot of effort to complete. Despite the work it took, I'm glad I did it. The results I got from the study lead me to believe that there really isn't that much difference between most defensive handgun rounds and calibers. None is a death ray, but most work adequately...even the lowly .22s. I've stopped worrying about trying to find the "ultimate" bullet. There isn't one. And I've stopped feeling the need to strap on my .45 every time I leave the house out of fear that my 9mm doesn't have enough "stopping power." Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important.
    Take a look at the data. I hope it helps you decide what weapon to carry. No matter which gun you choose, pick one that is reliable and train with it until you can get fast accurate hits. Nothing beyond that really matters!
    You may also enjoy this Greg Ellifritz story: A Parent's Guide to School Shootings
    Greg Ellifritz is the full time firearms and defensive tactics training officer for a central Ohio police department. He holds instructor or master instructor certifications in more than 75 different weapon systems, defensive tactics programs and police specialty areas. Greg has a master's degree in Public Policy and Management and is an instructor for both the Ohio Peace Officer's Training Academy and the Tactical Defense Institute.
    “When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.”
    Jimi Hendrix



  5. #50

    Chicken of the Sea Bondo 440's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    Nice work Tony. I can't RG you, but nice contribution, brother. :thumbs:
    Kitty Litter Convert #KL1245

  6. #51

    Don't Thread On Me asmartbull's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    A lot of good reading here.
    I agree that bigger bullets make bigger hole thus speeding up the bleeding process.
    Stopping power and kinetic energy discussions are over kill when talking about first weapons.
    Frankly, I am more concerned about how quickly I can draw on target and more important is how quickly
    I can get the second one off.
    For this reason the 9 mm is never a mistake as a defensive weapon especially with a 147 grain JHP. If I was a cop and it was a "duty" weapon, it would be the .45 PERIOD
    The .40 is to snappy, and even professionals have a harder time getting off the second as quickly as they can the 9mm.

    Sadly, most that carry for personal protection don't practice enough and could not get a shot off if an attacker was within 25 ft of them.

    IMHO, the best pistol is the one you can get 2 shots on target in 2 seconds.....
    An "oath" has no expiration date......

  7. #52

    Don't Thread On Me asmartbull's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    On a side note, there was a study by the FBI ( will try to find it) that stated
    that folks that "carried" were substantially less likely to find themselves in a situation where they felt that had to
    use it...simply because they were substantially more aware of their surroundings......just saying...
    An "oath" has no expiration date......

  8. #53

    THE MAN WHO LOVES TWANG! TonyBrooklyn's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    I read a similar article once that said 97% of the time the sound of a round being chambered or a hammer cocked back immediately halted the confrontation.
    I never put any faith in another's statistics as i found them to be a far cry from reality. I only posted these findings as a reference. I carry cocked and locked the first and last sound the perp will hear is the hammer dropping on a live round! And i do agree you must be able to clear leather and place two shoots center of mass in under two seconds to be effective. The gun is not magic you must be able to shot and shot well! The instructor at the range always says
    "Train hard stay strong and win the fight"
    “When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.”
    Jimi Hendrix



  9. #54

    Leading Puffer Fish Gdaddy's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    Bullets that miss their target are ineffective 100% of the time.

    Shot placement is of utmost importance. However, I do believe a shot to the chest with a .22 is less effective than the same shot placed with a .40 cal. But again the .40 won't do any good if you can't hit your target. I saw a husband and wife trying to qualify for their CC permit and they both had S&W .357 magnum revolvers. Neither one could hit a target from 10 feet away. Even the instructors couldn't figure out where their bullets were going. The recoil was WAY too much for them to handle. (reminds me of the scene in Pulp Fiction)

    My advise is to simply carry the largest caliber you can accurately shoot.

    One other point... the handgun is on the bottom of the totem pole as far as firearms go. Rifles and shotguns are far more formidable weapons. If I knew I was going to be in a gun fight there is NO question that a shotgun loaded with 000 buck shot would be my choice of weapon. Inside the home or outside. It is a devastating weapon.

    I just can't carry one so I'm stuck with a lowly little handgun that shoots 357Sig and again...don't forget the pepper spray...it's also VERY effective and very overlooked IMO.

  10. #55

    Leading Puffer Fish Gdaddy's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    The use of +P 9mm makes no sense to me. If you have a 9mm for the reason of less recoil why would you then load it with +P ammunition and increase the recoil? Many 9mm handguns are not designed to shoot these higher pressures that+P offers. Why not get a gun that is designed to shoot at these pressure levels from the start? For example, the 357Sig is a 9mm bullet atop of a necked down .40 cal. casing and the gun is designed to handle higher pressures and higher velocity.

    Bottom line...If you want a 9mm on steroids then 357Sig should be your choice NOT +P.

  11. #56

    Don't Thread On Me asmartbull's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gdaddy View Post
    The use of +P 9mm makes no sense to me. If you have a 9mm for the reason of less recoil why would you then load it with +P ammunition and increase the recoil? Many 9mm handguns are not designed to shoot these higher pressures that+P offers. Why not get a gun that is designed to shoot at these pressure levels from the start? For example, the 357Sig is a 9mm bullet atop of a necked down .40 cal. casing and the gun is designed to handle higher pressures and higher velocity.

    Bottom line...If you want a 9mm on steroids then 357Sig should be your choice NOT +P.
    Bingo
    Not a fan of any +p round
    and in fact I dislike the pressure in the .40.
    If you talk to gun reps, they will tell you that many companies had HUGE
    failure rates when first building .40, as they did if from the 9mm foundation,,,,and they just weren't able to handle the load.
    An "oath" has no expiration date......

  12. #57

    TWANGGGGG! StogieJim's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    Wow thanks guys, Tony, I can't give you RG man, says I need to spread it around!

    Man the more I read the less I wanna be walking around with a weapon....... be nice to have one in the home though.
    "Smoking cigars is not a sign of wealth. Having the time to smoke one is." - Fellow Puff Member

  13. #58

    THE MAN WHO LOVES TWANG! TonyBrooklyn's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    “When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.”
    Jimi Hendrix



  14. #59

    TWANGGGGG! StogieJim's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    so i priced out ammo.... 22 is cheapest by a LONG shot! with that said, I think the .22 is the best choice for a first weapon, that way I can practice more. With the prices of 9mm and 45's, I'd only practice maybe 100 rounds a month as the rounds and range time would add up.

    I also read that a .22 with hollow points loaded as a home weapon would be just fine, and its a hell of a lot better than nothing.

    What's your guys take on this thinking? Should I get the .22 for learning to handle guns and be able to hit the range weekly instead of once a month? And if thats a thumbs up, what are some recommendations? That S&W M&P .22 looks sick and got great reviews, but its 400 bucks... any other ideas?
    "Smoking cigars is not a sign of wealth. Having the time to smoke one is." - Fellow Puff Member

  15. #60

    Maturing Puffer Fish pipe30's Avatar


     

    Re: First Handgun?

    That's definitely some good info to read... thanks for sharing that with us.

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