Another smoking ban article

[commonsenseman]

Originally Posted by Delsana

Point being, I'll defend your right to choose as you like, but I'll also defend their right to "upgrade and improve" the society, no matter how they see it as long as it doesn't prove problematic to society in general.

Intellectual and intelligent concepts, thesis, and conversations are what the world needs more of, and as I've stated in previous threads; if we can understand the opposing side, and their views without such aggression or confrontation, then we can then move on to beneficial solutions that don't hurt us all.

Seriously, since when do liberty, freedom & personal responsibility have to do with anything? It's not like a free people should be able to choose for themselves or anything. Gosh I wish the government could help me decide what's bad for me........

[Cigary]

Originally Posted by Delsana

Your last statement touched home on an issue the people against these associations have, and that's the constant use of excuses to allay blame or redirect the focus to different people. I disagree with you here because it is not allaying blame because we are trying to make a stand against those who are not willing to stop with their rules and regulations. They are not stopping and they continue to run rampant with their agenda. If they truly were against what they say they were against they would attack those things that are really the core problem.While they may not be perfect, no Human is, and I can assure you the people in these associations aren't the type doing the things you're stating. I'm not saying they are bad people but rather they are people who are misdirected and yes, they are doing these things as I said because you see their footprints everywhere and they continue the attack in a blind and careless way. They feel their rights are being trampled so they attack those when we have tried to comply with smoking our tobacco outside, using tobacco products when they aren't nearby and that isn't enough for them. They want an absolute ban period and then they have the cojones to tell us not to use tobacco period as they munch on McDonalds that have a cholesterol rate that rivals clogged arteries in cadavers. We have complied with almost everything they have come after us with up to and including not smoking in cigar bars,,,now c'mon.

As for cars, transportation is needed for our busy world, well let's not attack something that we know kills people because air pollution is a real health issue and we don't want to step on the toes of an industry that makes money but electric (such as my soon to be Tesla sports car) bio-diesel, and solar cars are already being worked on and advanced, so they are taking a form towards that. Thank God they are doing something constructive after how many years now? I can't really take a statement towards alcohol but from what I know since they are also targeting that to a degree I can't see how they're partaking of it. I'd say it's because there is a lobby for alcohol that pretty much has enough money and power to kick anybodys butt when it comes to defending that industry. ( Remember Prohibition?)

As for my stance, in simplest form it's the following:

I confirm what I do as "wrong" in some forms, and perhaps unhealthy, I also confirm that I've done my own research on what I can and cannot do in a form that is healthy or beneficial for me. This habit breeds camaraderie and relaxation in the worst or best of times, and is thus more healthy due to our need to be social and interactive creatures, then not partaking of it, however I make sure not to over-indulge. We agree here and that is all we're advocating but when you have a lobby that will not compromise and is in attack mode 100% of the time it's hard to deal with those who will not compromise. While I can understand it might be confusing why I would defend people against such things, it's because despite SOME of the hypocrisy and idiocy involved in their attempts, it is still a noble goal to improve the world, noble yes, reasonable NO and I have no problem with them doing so, I have a problem with this and will fight against those who would tell me that I must conform to their standards no matter what. however I will admit not having a choice in the matter is bothersome but we can't have it all (that may sound defeatist, but I assure you it is simply the intention to see how things progress).

Point being, I'll defend your right to choose as you like, but I'll also defend their right to "upgrade and improve" the society, no matter how they see it as long as it doesn't prove problematic to society in general. It is problematic because they assert their will over those who want to indulge in those things that they want to indulge in ( as long as that will does not infect others )

Intellectual and intelligent concepts, thesis, and conversations are what the world needs more of, and as I've stated in previous threads; if we can understand the opposing side, and their views without such aggression or confrontation, then we can then move on to beneficial solutions that don't hurt us all. Healthy debate is fine as long as the lines are not crossed where my right to engage in a habit is not being systematically dismantled because somebody else doesn't like my habit. Aggresion and confrontation was never the banner we chose to be under until those who wanted to take our rights away and we chose to defend our right. They can have all the thoughts and opinions they can sift through their living brain cells but at the end of the day I will not be rolled over and be trampled because they don't like my cigar smoke or me smoking my cigars.

[Delsana]

I absolutely abhor the color red...

<.<

Your statements make sense, but they also give way to the fact that you know a lot of the things they'd try to fight against would be useless fights without more support or power (fast food, alcohol, cars) and they know that too because they've already tried and failed many times; however they also know that if they take out Big Tobacco, all of a sudden they will have that massive support and recognition they need to get things done.

As I said, no one can argue that removing the "impurities" of the world, would make the world a worse place, because that would be illogical and infeasible in any concept of thought, as they cause many a problems.

I agree they way they are doing it is a bit tyrannical, but you can't really state that you've gone "along" with their choices, after all you've tried to fight every one, and it's not like most of you did anything on your own to improve things... as that only happened when public outcry called out. I understand the point, but let's not kid ourselves on the fact this has been asked for a long time, and no one did anything about it, especially not the partakers.

You say you've been respectful and what not... but as I said the "cigar industry" is just a bonus for this, it's so much less than the cigarette industry which both pollutes, smells awful, induces massive amounts of liter, causes health problems, as well as a numerous trade of other things. The whole point, is that it's just being lobbed together, and that isn't going to change UNLESS you can give yourselves a DIFFERENT image.

I myself have seen courteous cigar smokers, and rude ones as well, it's pretty obvious what side the majority of smokers are on.

Your only chance to actually come out of this battle when it ends (probably in 3 - 5 years) without death, but instead scars, is to change your image... or at least make it better known.

[commonsenseman]

I do not wish to argue any further on this matter.

I would only like to add that I personally believe that we cigar/pipe smokers are a tougher breed than we get credit for. We have been & will continue to stand up for what we believe is right. I can’t speak for everyone, but I will be damned if I’m gonna let someone take my cigars away. Basic liberties have been taken away before unsuccessfully. Prohibition for example, did not work so well. All banning something like this does is create a black market for it. Weed is illegal yet it’s still readily available.

As I’ve said before, they can have them when they pry them from my cold dead fingers.

[madurolover]

Originally Posted by Delsana

I myself have seen courteous cigar smokers, and rude ones as well, it's pretty obvious what side the majority of smokers are on.

And which side would that be?

Originally Posted by Delsana

Your only chance to actually come out of this battle when it ends (probably in 3 - 5 years) without death, but instead scars, is to change your image... or at least make it better known.

Who are you to tell anyone they need to change their image? Especially people you don't even know!

You see, most of us live by a standard of being polite and actually caring for others feelings. I am sure you have seen the term BOTL here. Well, that stands for Brother of the Leaf. In other words we treat and respect each other as brothers. We travel all around the country just to meet each other because we are truly a compassionate and caring group of people.

Please do not lump the whole brotherhood together just because there may be a few a-holes out there.

BTW I am also a cigarette smoker.

[Delsana]

Originally Posted by madurolover

And which side would that be?



Who are you to tell anyone they need to change their image? Especially people you don't even know!

You see, most of us live by a standard of being polite and actually caring for others feelings. I am sure you have seen the term BOTL here. Well, that stands for Brother of the Leaf. In other words we treat and respect each other as brothers. We travel all around the country just to meet each other because we are truly a compassionate and caring group of people.

Please do not lump the whole brotherhood together just because there may be a few a-holes out there.

BTW I am also a cigarette smoker.

My stances don't change in that regard, as it would make me a hypocrite. (However if you partake of cigars... it makes no sense to me why you would do the other)

Mmm perhaps I'll explain in a different manner. Unlike the many I see that are in an uproar against these groups; I've actually talked with people in them, as well as people who agreed with them, and I proved that with a positive outlook and intelligent discussion, they can be "reasoned" with, however the issue is that they don't see the majority of smokers of any form being like this, and while they can easily differentiate between chewing, cigarettes, and cigars; they focus on the fact that it has to be all or nothing, it's their "chance" so to speak, an opportunity given to them to take out one of the "evils" while they have such a chance, which will undoubtedly lead them to fighting against the other "evils".

That's why I say the only possible way for you to survive their onslaught (which is supported by vast numbers of anti smokers, concerned citizens, smoke-nazi's, and people who don't care one way or the other) is to change the image, and make it less aggressive towards them, and instead try to understand, and show that. It's not a case of me telling you what to do, it's a case of relaying the blatant facts and their own focuses, as well as stating the only real way that things will be fixed without a further uproar.

I mistyped on the point of courtesy so allow me to modify that.

I have seen numerous cigarette smokers who are very very rude and impolite, as well as some who aren't, but these are in the minority. The same goes for cigar smokers, however I will admit that myself included we are generally much more courteous than the others, until of course problems begin to form that we disagree with, and for some unfortunate reason people respond in aggressive and confrontational manners, and not the polite and intelligent form that will actually accomplish something.

Yelling at it, doesn't fix anything.

[madurolover]

So in your estimation the anti-smoke groups are courteous and polite while us smokers are not?

It takes a lot to get me angry but these groups make my blood boil. Personally I would like to put my cigar out in one of their eyes.

I also think that vegetarians should be banned, afterall have you ever smelled the gas from one of them? It is terrible what with all the beans, sprouts, and junk they eat. They also do far more to pollute the atmosphere than smokers do. Of course just like you, this is only my opinion.

Also you are truly delusional if you think that the majority of it has anything to do with "saving the planet or concerns about fellow mans health". It is about control, plain and simple!

[Cigary]

[QUOTE=Delsana;2699615]I absolutely abhor the color red...

QUOTE]

I say take 2 red pills and chase it with a xanax.

Originally Posted by madurolover

And which side would that be?



Who are you to tell anyone they need to change their image? Especially people you don't even know!

You see, most of us live by a standard of being polite and actually caring for others feelings. I am sure you have seen the term BOTL here. Well, that stands for Brother of the Leaf. In other words we treat and respect each other as brothers. We travel all around the country just to meet each other because we are truly a compassionate and caring group of people.

Please do not lump the whole brotherhood together just because there may be a few a-holes out there.

BTW I am also a cigarette smoker.

Well said Donnie.

Originally Posted by Delsana

My stances don't change in that regard, as it would make me a hypocrite. (However if you partake of cigars... it makes no sense to me why you would do the other)

Mmm perhaps I'll explain in a different manner. Unlike the many I see that are in an uproar against these groups; I've actually talked with people in them, as well as people who agreed with them, and I proved that with a positive outlook and intelligent discussion, they can be "reasoned" with, however the issue is that they don't see the majority of smokers of any form being like this, and while they can easily differentiate between chewing, cigarettes, and cigars; they focus on the fact that it has to be all or nothing, it's their "chance" so to speak, an opportunity given to them to take out one of the "evils" while they have such a chance, which will undoubtedly lead them to fighting against the other "evils".

That's why I say the only possible way for you to survive their onslaught (which is supported by vast numbers of anti smokers, concerned citizens, smoke-nazi's, and people who don't care one way or the other) is to change the image, and make it less aggressive towards them, and instead try to understand, and show that. It's not a case of me telling you what to do, it's a case of relaying the blatant facts and their own focuses, as well as stating the only real way that things will be fixed without a further uproar.

I mistyped on the point of courtesy so allow me to modify that.

I have seen numerous cigarette smokers who are very very rude and impolite, as well as some who aren't, but these are in the minority. The same goes for cigar smokers, however I will admit that myself included we are generally much more courteous than the others, until of course problems begin to form that we disagree with, and for some unfortunate reason people respond in aggressive and confrontational manners, and not the polite and intelligent form that will actually accomplish something.

Yelling at it, doesn't fix anything.

Amazing that your head doesn't blow up with all that knowledge and wisdom. Relax and take a chill pill and understand that your beliefs and opinions are what they are and probably aren't going to sway too many people on a cigar site and just might possibly rile the troops. As Commonsenseman said most appropriately we are a group of people who feel strongly about our rights and we are at an impasse here with our opinions. I don't think you're going to change the mindset here nor will yours change so we probably need to agree to disagree on this and move on to softer things like jello recipes and whipped cream pies.

[Delsana]

Originally Posted by madurolover

So in your estimation the anti-smoke groups are courteous and polite while us smokers are not?

It takes a lot to get me angry but these groups make my blood boil. Personally I would like to put my cigar out in one of their eyes.

I also think that vegetarians should be banned, afterall have you ever smelled the gas from one of them? It is terrible what with all the beans, sprouts, and junk they eat. They also do far more to pollute the atmosphere than smokers do. Of course just like you, this is only my opinion.

Also you are truly delusional if you think that the majority of it has anything to do with "saving the planet or concerns about fellow mans health". It is about control, plain and simple!

It is never the event that has mattered in our history, it is the aftermath. This has been proven time and time again. While they may not be focusing on it entirely (I can assure you some are) what happens after their goals are met is what the world is waiting to see.

And please do not stick words in my mouth... if I did not say it, then I did not mean it.

Your aggression towards them, is the problem, and is the fuel and ammunition which they use against you.

Edit:

As you wish, but have it known that while topics like this exist with one side of the axis portrayed, I will be here to portray the other.

As for the pie, no thank you I'll take some cheesecake instead.

[madurolover]

Originally Posted by Delsana

It is never the event that has mattered in our history, it is the aftermath. This has been proven time and time again. While they may not be focusing on it entirely (I can assure you some are) what happens after their goals are met is what the world is waiting to see.

And please do not stick words in my mouth... if I did not say it, then I did not mean it.

Your aggression towards them, is the problem, and is the fuel and ammunition which they use against you.

Edit:

As you wish, but have it known that while topics like this exist with one side of the axis portrayed, I will be here to portray the other.

As for the pie, no thank you I'll take some cheesecake instead.

The bolded part is where you are absolutely, 100% wrong. They are the aggressors. I know you consider yourself an intellectual but maybe you should try viewing the world with your eyes and mind open instead of closed.

The only question I have for you is, do you smoke?

[Delsana]

Originally Posted by madurolover

The bolded part is where you are absolutely, 100% wrong. They are the aggressors. I know you consider yourself an intellectual but maybe you should try viewing the world with your eyes and mind open instead of closed.

The only question I have for you is, do you smoke?

I advise you to read my statements if that is not already apparent.

From my research and from what I've seen, they weren't aggressive at first, they asked kindly, they did things to fix things without real aggression or anger... and people didn't like that, so now they try a more confrontational approach, and instead of replying with intelligence and reasoning and discussion, you also reply in confrontational forms, and so it's not anyone's fault for starting it per-say, but it is everyone's fault for the way it continues to be.

Yelling at people, fixes nothing, and confrontation only begets confrontation, as they have shown, and you have made.

While it's true I prefer the intellectual side as well as playing the devil's advocate and the Laissez-faire approach, it should also be known that I do very much know what is going on in the world, and I simply focus on the fact that aggression and the current responses don't fix anything, and never will...

While it can be argued they too should show a lack of confrontation, it can also be said that they already did, and that didn't work, however it would be nice if they reverted to that and everyone discussed properly and intelligently, but in reality they don't need to do that anymore... they are winning the war, slowly but surely. The only choice left to make is what the casualties will be, and what the surrender agreement will become.

I simply firmly believe, we have already lost... we just haven't seen how yet, and thus I would much prefer to come out with something, rather than nothing... and the only way to do that is to change our appearance... which is what I work towards in all aspects, during my life.

[madurolover]

Originally Posted by madurolover

do you smoke?

^^^^


Or possibly we are pissed about our rights being trampled on. You know, kinda like those who settled this great country.

[danmcmartin]

Originally Posted by gjcab09

No, they are out to control every friggin' aspect of your life that they don't feel is necessary for the good of the State.

I'm telling you, re-education camps are right around the corner...actually, they're already here, it's called the evening news, and the public school system.

Goes waaaaay beyond cigars, and I gotta stop reading this before my blood-pressure goes through the roof!

Well said!

I stand by my post from the other smoking ban thread:

" ...its not about smoke, its about control. Its not about global warming, its not about health care and its not about taxes. Its all about control. Control of your life, your activities and your thinking. Some folks can't handle the fact that others choose a different lifestyle, habit or activity. As soon as we start to feel we have to look at things from their point of view, we've lost. I'm not saying that some people don't have legitimate gripes about smoking, health care or climate change, but when they become shrill, irrational and unreasonable, they aren't worth understanding anymore. There are people that don't want to be understood, reasoned with or talked too, they want you to stop doing whatever it is that offends them and they want it now."

Maybe we need smoking ban section under Tobacco Legislation. Sheesh!

[Delsana]

Originally Posted by madurolover

^^^^


Or possibly we are pissed about our rights being trampled on. You know, kinda like those who settled this great country.

First off be wary when you involve the liberties of our "great country".

It should readily be apparent that due to the statutes being vague, America has interpreted nearly all of the ways this country works, and as such they could be ENTIRELY different than what the founders wanted.

Also, the reason this country was made was because of taxation, the martial law, and because they TRIED to talk intelligent and discuss things properly, and they were ignored and only met with more aggression. In this case, the precedent falls on the anti smoker groups being ignored, and thus taking force, not on your side.

However, I stand by what I will continue to state until the end of time.

Confrontation is not what will work... you don't have many of a choice any more, the battle has already been lost... the only issue is how long will it take to understand this, and what will be saved from the wrath of these agencies and interest groups.

Edit:

Numerous times I have stated that I partake yes, however I am very health-conscious, make sure not to over-indulge, and appreciate it more for the camaraderie and relaxation in the times of great strife, that it brings... (and is something so rare these days) which is NOT something I want to be taken away true, however I am willing to make sacrifices (not complete loss) so as to better the world, if that becomes the desire of the people.

Edit 2:

While SOME OF IT (and not MUCH) is about control, you are seriously misleading yourselves in an attempt to make yourselves and your opinions seem more "factual", if you believe that none of it is helpful, or good.

Global warming has already been scientifically proven and can be re proven by your own research if you ever so choose. While yes, the government wants to control what you do, they also have to do something... and that means fixing things. Point being there are several ozone tears that aren't repairing due to focused pollution... and will NEVER be fixed until such a thing is stopped.

The point is not control in this discussion, regardless of even if that was the initial focus, it is the AFTERMATH that matters, and if it fixes something, then so be it.

Hiroshima was nuked, and it wasn't a big choice for those that did it... we all lament it, but if we hadn't the war would have gone on. Control, and stopping the war yes... but it lead to peace and it lead to more than just that.

(I apologize, my grammar and English skills seem to have decreased in this statement.. I will most likely polish it up later on)

[madurolover]

I am sorry that you feel that "you" have lost the battle. As for me, I have lost nothing and do not plan on it.

With that said, i am stepping out of this thread and having a cigar and a drink of 'shine so that my head may level off once again.

Good day all!