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This is not good.

This is a discussion on This is not good. within the Tobacco Legislation forums, part of the The Cigar Lounges at Puff category; http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/18/he....html?hpw&_r=0 The vast majority of members here either avoid, or only dabble, in flavored cigars. Yet, we are affected by ...

  
  1. #1

    Evolving Lead Puffer Fish kumanchu's Avatar


     

    This is not good.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/18/he....html?hpw&_r=0

    The vast majority of members here either avoid, or only dabble, in flavored cigars. Yet, we are affected by what is happening in that part of the market.

    I am afraid we are, as a group, indirectly promoting this issue. While trying to "protect" our hobby, we are establishing the rules that these companies are exploiting. While I'm sure some will disagree, because what we smoke and seek to protect are different.

    But I hope that we can all agree that flavored cigars that are marketed to roping in young smokers is certainly not good. Even more so, to agree that the market players taking wrongly advantage of the rules is even worse.

  2. #2

    Conscientious Objector Cardinal's Avatar


     

    Re: This is not good.

    The sad part is I'm sure policies will be formed by a pack of dummies using those idiotic stats - cigarette sales are down a third, and cigars now account for a higher percentage of overall tobacco sales. Amazing! They have a truly ace staff of statisticians.
    Death comes for us all, Oroku Saki, but something much worse comes for you. For when you die, it will be...without honor - Splinter

  3. #3

    Evolving Lead Puffer Fish kumanchu's Avatar


     

    Re: This is not good.

    one in five highschool students using flavored cigars to smoke blunts is a reprehensible statistic.

    i don't have any problems with pot, but this is a legitimate way to show that they are being marketed towards kids. terrible.

  4. #4

    Conscientious Objector Cardinal's Avatar


     

    Re: This is not good.

    I agree, it's bad that kids are smoking anything. Although I'd rather my kid smoked the occasional Swisher than weed. Either way I'd be embarrassed and wondering where I failed, of course.

    Was only pointing out flawed use of stats in the article. Since we don't know the total sold numbers, the increase as a percentage of tobacco sales for cigars is possible even if total cigar sales declined, since the total cigarettes sold saw such a precipitous decline.

    And even on the 1 in 5 kids thing..didn't notice if it mentioned, but if it was 1 in 4 kids ten years ago then we'd actually be heading the proper direction.
    Death comes for us all, Oroku Saki, but something much worse comes for you. For when you die, it will be...without honor - Splinter

  5. #5

    Huge Puffer Fish packed with spikes JustinThyme's Avatar


     

    Re: This is not good.

    I would venture to say that the numbers for those using them to roll blunts is a bit lower than actuality. Their results are from a poll and not everyone who smokes blunts is going to fess up. This has been going on for a long time, well before flavored cigars reached the proportions that they have now. I knew a convenience store owner that sold blunts over the counter 15 years ago and she wrote down a description of every patron and took their license plate on the car. Most of them never made it out of the parking lot before they went to their deed and left the innards of a cigar on the ground. As soon as she saw this she called the Po Po. According to her more than half of the sales went down as just described.

    Under age kids are going to get into whatever they can, if its not this something else will come along. I would rather see them smoking a blunt than a crack pipe or using bath salts. When I was growing up none of this was readily available. Anyone who had the $$ could buy any type of tobacco and for a buzz we raided our parents liquor cabinet. IMO this is just more of over the same of people with the ideology that if you make it disappear that it will fix the problem, much like gun control activists. Sorry but outlawing guns to keep them out of the hands of criminals is like outlawing cars to prevent drunk driving.

    As for the marketing aspect I dont believe the companies are at fault as much as the stores who display them with candy. They should be behind the counter with ID needed to purchase.
    Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. ~Albert Einstein

  6. #6

    Puffer Fish with some spikes LueyC's Avatar


     

    Re: This is not good.

    I agree with JustinThyme, you can use statistics to prove anything. Especially if your data collection methods are less than ideal. Kids are going to do whatever they can get their hands on for a buzz. It's up to us as parents to educate them and find things and activities that will keep them engaged. In NY, cigars are sold behind or under the counter. But make no mistake about it they are being marketed at youngsters with the shiny packaging, and flavors.

    I believe that corporate greed will screw us (the adult cigar smoker), because politicians will tax cigars more heavily to dissuade kids from getting their hands on them. The funny thing is no one is addressing the elephant in the room, that being the potential tax windfall from legalizing and taxing pot. And much like the gun debate, making something illegal (pot or automatic weapons) is not going to keep it out of the bad guy's hands. If anything it hurts the ones who actually want to abide by the law.

  7. #7

    No longer a community member.


     

    Re: This is not good.

    You have to draw the line in the sand somewhere. We tend to do it using the ages of 18 or 21 in this country. You blame companies all day long for who they market to, but at some point personal responsibility has to come into play. If you are 18 (or 19 or 21) depending on the state and you are foolish enough to think smoking a filtered grape cigarillo is in your best interests regulations don't provide much hope for you in making other wise decisions elsewhere. If age restrictions are properly enforced than this is not a matter of victimized children who need to be looked out for, this is young adults without a measure of sense. You can't nanny-state everyone so that stupid decision aren't possible. What really cracked me up was the deal about a poor young african-american and the poor young nursing student and how these are so appealing to them because of the price. A 40 of Old English is cheap too, so is a bag of 600 calorie Fritos, or a condom for an ill-advised sexual encounter. None of these items represent a smart decision for young people, should we stop selling them as well? And trust me, I'm not trying to be "high and mighty" about this because I smoked more weed in cheap cigars than I care to admit during my teens- but Lord, even I knew inhaling a pack of Swisher Sweets was a foolish idea.
    On a slightly different track (but still related to the article) the one girl is a nursing student? Am I the only one who saw irony in that. Sometimes I'm amazed when I visit a hospital and find the majority of people huddled in the "smoker's hut" outside are not visitors or custodians or staff, but instead the nurses who see and treat the effects of cigarettes on a daily basis. It just confuses me sometimes.
    Last edited by Tobias Lutz; 08-19-2013 at 12:38 PM. Reason: i spel lik mi 2 yer olde

  8. #8

    Huge Puffer Fish packed with spikes JustinThyme's Avatar


     

    Re: This is not good.

    I hear ya Tobias. There is irony in the story and the rebel without a clause activists that push these laws dont think past the point "Hey lets make it illegal or tax the hell out of it". If they really want to do it they will still find a way and driving the costs up Im afraid will only result in kids taking drastic measures to still be able to fund it and the increased revenue from excessive taxation will have to go to the federal war on tobacco and prison costs. The activists always seem to be pushing the wrong things. One thing on the weed issue that about floored me was when watching a show on Discovery a few years ago there was a DEA agent on there speaking out about the harshness of the sentences for weed offenses. Depending on where you are a weed grower can face more jail time than a convicted murderer. How in the hell does that make sense?
    Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. ~Albert Einstein

  9. #9

    Ruler Of The Galaxy Emperor Zurg's Avatar


     

    Re: This is not good.

    @Tobias Lutz The trouble with your post is you're using logic. That will never do. It has been politically proven that logic is cold, heartless, uncaring and unsympathetic. Moreover, racist. When deciding the issues of this (once) great land, one can only rely on emotion, fear-mongering, finger-pointing and inducing panic. THAT's how we show we care. To hell with our rights - ALL of them! IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN!!!!!1

  10. #10

    Maturing Puffer Fish midnight warrior's Avatar


     

    Re: This is not good.

    I rolled many a blunt in my yesteryear. We always used plain swishers. The flavor of the cigarillo would mask the taste of the high grade product we put in it. Thats why we used the regular or plain. To preserve the flavor of the product. The only reason why cigars and cigarillos are used is it holds more and burns slower than a paper. No different then hippys rolling joints. They make even flavored papers that say not for tobacco use on them. Lately with the medical marijuana movement pipes and papers are makimg a come back. Lots of new age none tabbaco users dont want to inhale the wrapper of cigar. Just saying.

    If this is a taboo subject just edit my post dont ban me. Im new amd dont really know if it is ok to talk about pot kike that here.

  11. #11

    Join the CRA NOW! Stinky's Avatar


     

    Re: This is not good.

    The anti tobacco nannies are a powerful political movement! "They" (the anti tobacco movement) would take all this (our passion for cigars) away from us if we let them. Cigar Rights of America is the only consumer based organization fighting for our rights to enjoy fine cigars. The CRA teams up with other associations to fight legislation proposed to tax and restrict fine cigars.

    We're all quick to complain about what "they" are doing to us and how unfair (or even illegal) their tactics are. But what are YOU doing about it? Just sitting here complaining about it doesn't help. Join the CRA and be apart of the solution. Stand up and be counted! CRA needs a million cigar enthusiasts on their list! And, if you cannot justify the $35 per year membership fee, you can sign up for free in their 'Grass Roots' program.

    Take Action! Joining CRA is the first step. We all need to write our politicians and let them know. CRA makes it easy with their click & send e-mails to representatives in your zip code.
    Name:  CRA Logo Med.jpg
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  12. #12

    Huge Puffer Fish packed with spikes brimy623's Avatar


     

    Re: This is not good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Zurg View Post
    @Tobias Lutz The trouble with your post is you're using logic. That will never do. It has been politically proven that logic is cold, heartless, uncaring and unsympathetic. Moreover, racist. When deciding the issues of this (once) great land, one can only rely on emotion, fear-mongering, finger-pointing and inducing panic. THAT's how we show we care. To hell with our rights - ALL of them! IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN!!!!!1
    +1 on everything you said, including the logic (common sense) that so many seem NOT to have or exercise.
    Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail!!!

  13. #13

    A Puffer not a Fighter Johnny Z's Avatar


     

    Re: This is not good.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustinThyme View Post
    I would venture to say that the numbers for those using them to roll blunts is a bit lower than actuality. Their results are from a poll and not everyone who smokes blunts is going to fess up. This has been going on for a long time, well before flavored cigars reached the proportions that they have now. I knew a convenience store owner that sold blunts over the counter 15 years ago and she wrote down a description of every patron and took their license plate on the car. Most of them never made it out of the parking lot before they went to their deed and left the innards of a cigar on the ground. As soon as she saw this she called the Po Po. According to her more than half of the sales went down as just described.

    Under age kids are going to get into whatever they can, if its not this something else will come along. I would rather see them smoking a blunt than a crack pipe or using bath salts. When I was growing up none of this was readily available. Anyone who had the $$ could buy any type of tobacco and for a buzz we raided our parents liquor cabinet. IMO this is just more of over the same of people with the ideology that if you make it disappear that it will fix the problem, much like gun control activists. Sorry but outlawing guns to keep them out of the hands of criminals is like outlawing cars to prevent drunk driving.

    As for the marketing aspect I dont believe the companies are at fault as much as the stores who display them with candy. They should be behind the counter with ID needed to purchase.
    I've got your back on this. Well said. Thank you for your sanity.

  14. #14

    A Puffer not a Fighter Johnny Z's Avatar


     

    Re: This is not good.

    Quote Originally Posted by LueyC View Post
    I agree with JustinThyme, you can use statistics to prove anything. Especially if your data collection methods are less than ideal. Kids are going to do whatever they can get their hands on for a buzz. It's up to us as parents to educate them and find things and activities that will keep them engaged. In NY, cigars are sold behind or under the counter. But make no mistake about it they are being marketed at youngsters with the shiny packaging, and flavors.

    I believe that corporate greed will screw us (the adult cigar smoker), because politicians will tax cigars more heavily to dissuade kids from getting their hands on them. The funny thing is no one is addressing the elephant in the room, that being the potential tax windfall from legalizing and taxing pot. And much like the gun debate, making something illegal (pot or automatic weapons) is not going to keep it out of the bad guy's hands. If anything it hurts the ones who actually want to abide by the law.
    You just saved me some typing.

  15. #15

    Philosopher Extraordinai Gigmaster's Avatar


     

    Re: This is not good.

    I haven't seen many youngsters smoking cigars...Have any of you? I think it's just a way to offend emotions against cigars. They did the same thing with cigarettes. Tobacco is not marketed towards minors, because that would be a stupid waste of advertising money. Minors cannot legally buy cigars, and it is illegal to sell to them. I see young people get carded all the time for buying tobacco and alcohol, so the stores are enforcing this law. If minors are getting ahold of cigars, then they need to find out how, and not blame the cigar. It's about as stupid as the anti-gun Nazi's blaming the gun for a crime, instead of the person who fired it. Minors who obtain tobacco (or alcohol) illegally should be locked up like the little juvenile delinquents they are, and their parent (or more rarely these days, parents...) fined, or maybe even jailed. I'll be that would slow things down a lot.


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